Diesel Liberty conversion how to?

[Mieser]

AEV,

I know you guys are not going to offer that SWEET liberty diesel conversion to market :( There are however a small group of die-hard jeepers out here that would love to perform this swap. Could we please have an informative discussion on how this swap was made possible? I would love to hear some details on the wiring and interface between the Diesel ECM, FCM, BCM, TCU, and the TJ gauge cluster. I have been pouring over the Liberty FSM and wiring diagrams trying to get a feel on how things work. I noticed the FCM ( forward control module ) seems to act as an interface between different types of area networks. Could you please explain how this figures into the engine swap. Thanks for the help guys, keep up the great work.

[JeepinJon]

The current issue of JP magazine also has a great article this month with several resources for more information on diesel swaps for Jeeps you may want to check out.

[Mieser]

Yeah, they didn't really go into any detail at all. They just gave a list of places that might have done something or might have an engine. I miss the days of ten part tech articles that let you know what size bolts you needed for the conversion.

I'm looking for some answers. AEV has got them ;) Please share!

[JeepinJon]

i know that Burnsville Off Road also has done these, and offered them to anyone willing to pay so I would consult with them as well as AEV and both should have good information and be able to help. Here is a link to their buildup http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/Articles/05_11_08.aspx

[Mieser]

Thank you for that link. I remember having seen it a ways back, and I know I saved the pictures somewhere. Anyways, thanks. I fired off an e-mail to them asking for information about the swap? I wonder if they ever finished it?

I hope Dave from AEV pokes his head in this thread sometime when he is not too busy.

Looking at this conversion in general one problem I see is that the front upper control arms are a big issue with this swap. On the white AEV LJ I know they used some Range Rover radius arms to convert the front suspension. Also on the Burnsville CRD swap they used the Rubicon Express front radius arm conversion. It looks like the factory CRD motor mounts are basically where the upper control arms need to be. Perhaps something as simple as running a 'bent' upper control arm to clear the motor mount would work or integrating the upper control arm mount and motor mount. I noticed that the Burnsville shop cut off the upper control arm mounts all together. I wonder if the mount for the CRD motor mounts are right where the upper control arms mount to the frame? The passenger side ( LHD ) upper control arm looks like it might get pretty friendly with the power steering pump on the lower front passenger side of the engine. The Burnsville project is also missing the A/C compressor, which should be mirrored on the other side of the engine.

I looked up used CRD libertys yesterday....its looking better and better.

[AEV Dave]

First off, this is not meant to discourage you at all. Its a pretty tough swap to do right. We built a separate electronic gateway to convert all the signals the liberty had into Wrangler type signals. I would venture to guess that Dan at Burnsville put all the wiring and computers from a KJ into that silver one. (I will say for the record, that I haven't ever seen that car done, all the pics show it with the engine just sitting in it even though it leads you to believe its done, (no radiator, intercooler, AC, ECM, coolant reservoir and a noticeable lack of wiring etc))

The KJ diesel took me about 4 days to build the harness (Once you know what your doing, it should take only about 2 days) and it took my brother about two days to write the software to make it work. Its very complex with way too many wires. (look at the bundle of wires going across the dash in my Jeep) Like I said above, it can be done without the gateway and electronics, its just going to take some work to get all the KJ computers shoved into the TJ. The Cooling package (Radiator, Intercooler, AC Condnesor) also took a lot of work to get it right. The KJ diesel does not like the upper control arms at all which is why I went with the Rover arms (They were also longer than any long arm, forged, and bent perfectly for the TJ frame)

I would do three things if your really interested.
1. Wait for Moab EJS, there might be an interesting announcement there. (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
2. May be worth a call to Jared (used to own AFW in Lewistown MT), I believe he recently completed a KJ swap for a customer. I don't know for sure, thats just what I heard.
3. Go with a older non-electronic Mercedes or Cummins 4BT

Photos here: http://aev-conversions.com/vehicles/show_tj_diesel.php

Hope that helps a bit anyway.
dh

[JeepinJon]

I know that Dan was charging like $24,000 for the conversion last I heard, and it wasn't due to the price of the engine. I am looking forward to EJS and the 2009 JK press releases to see if there are any diesel options since they were running a 4.0 liter diesel in the silver JK at SEMA a few years ago. They have already announced that orage will be back for 2009 which I have been waiting on.

[Mieser]

DAVE!!

Thanks so much for posting in this thread and shedding some light on what you did. I figured that you guys must have used an interface module of some kind. I was just pouring over some material on how to build something like that. Did you guys use the liberty FCM or replace it with your own module?

I'll also be looking forward to what happens at EJS this year ;)

I did find one conversion that is running. It was done in part by Hotwire auto. They do a lot of Hemi conversion stuff I guess. Anyways, they have done one CRD wrangler swap and have another in the wings this next few weeks. As far as I can tell from the phone conversation they used the liberty ECM, TCM, and FCM wired into the TJ/LJ. They charge about $1500 to do the wiring. The downside is that they couldn't get the tach or speedo to work. I guess the other gauges did however work?? The wiring they did looked fairly clean....but I do see a few loops of wire in engine compartment.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/Mieserphoto/Diesel%20wrangler/tj_diesel_5.jpg

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/Mieserphoto/Diesel%20wrangler/tj_diesel_3.jpg

I don't know if this was the AFW jeep? I tried to find some info on that and couldn't come up with anything. I also talked with Burnsville about there conversion. They said they where working on the wiring harness.

[AEV Dave]

Hey look at that! That's the first "other CRD" I've seen, but as you mentioned there seems to be a lot of extra "stuff". Thats kind of what I was getting at, its just not a clean conversion.

The rest of the gauges work because they are hooked up to basically stock TJ stuff (aka stuff thats not on the bus) The Fuel Pump, Battery Voltage, Coolant Temp and Oil Pressure are all analog signals, so all you have to do to make those work is hook them up to the sensors. The Tach is looking for a signal from the ECM that in a Liberty is a CAN bus network and is converted to a J1850 bus signal. The speedo is looking for another message on the CAN network that is sent out from the ABS module. The other question to ask because it may or may not work is the diagnostic port. These are the things we had to build a module or "gateway" to handle.

When you look at the pictures of the Cummins we put in the JK, you can see its a "clean" conversion, meaning the wiring is tight and concise, not a lot of extra stuff. Thats the kind of conversion that is a pleasure to own, simple, durable and easy to diagnose.

I'm not completely sure about the Hotwire thing, but I believe its part of Squires wire harnesses, Tony Squires is the same guy that builds all of Burnsville Harnesses, they used to build Teras harnesses when they were trying to do HEMIs.

dh

[Mieser]

Thanks for posting some info Dave,

Is this kinda what AEV is building for an interface?

http://www.dgeinc.net/Gateways.htm

Did you guys end up using the Front Control Module or did your gateway replace that?

What is the SCI Bus? It seems to run between the Engine Control Module, Transmission Control Module, Front Control Module, ABS module. What does this network do?

The CAN-bus runs between the FCM, ECM, and ABS module.

The PCI bus runs between about everything else. FCM, Radio, ABS module, trip computer, occupant classification module, air bag module, Body control module, instrument cluster, and the data link connector.

So if I had a complete CRD liberty, a complete TJ, a wad of cash, and I bought you guys lunch would you ever do another CRD swap? I won't tell anyone. PM me if you don't want to post how big the wad of cash has to be.

Thanks for the help.

[Jdemonto]

I have talked to the guy that owns the Silver Rubicon in the pics from Hotwire. He tows it behind a Diesel Coach and I have called him, He never returned my calls?? I was hoping for a visit to AZ since he has family here. I am strongly feeling the same about a KJ swap...the wiring scares me!

Lets hope for good news at EJS!!

Jason

[Mieser]

I also found this gateway. It only does J1850 or CAN-bus though, not both. Its a super compact unit that has some neat features. Its fully programmable in basic language and I think it would do some of the same functions you listed.

http://www.dgtech.com/autopak_guide.pdf

I would think a unit like this could read the liberty style PCI codes and convert them to TJ style PCI codes back and forth. How the heck does one go about figuring out the code? Its seems that this module would also be capable of using some of the I/O functions to create other functions inside the jeep PCI network.

[dp7197]

I would do three things if your really interested.
1. Wait for Moab EJS, there might be an interesting announcement there. (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
2. May be worth a call to Jared (used to own AFW in Lewistown MT), I believe he recently completed a KJ swap for a customer. I don't know for sure, thats just what I heard.
3. Go with a older non-electronic Mercedes or Cummins 4BT

Hope that helps a bit anyway.
dh

I only plan on doing the first thing...........the suspense is going to kill me...could it be possible? Jeep.........have you finally listened?

DH, you can tell me, I promise I won't say anything.

[mtjeeper]

Just curious - what are the drawbacks to converting to a mechanical diesel like the 4BT. I like the idea of a simple mechanical motor - like the good ol' days :D. Could you use biodiesel in it?

Thanks

[Mieser]

Mechanical diesels are just fine. 4bts are pretty heavy though. This swap has been done a number of times.

[mtjeeper]

What electronic stuff do you lose doing a mechanical conversion - gauges, check engine oil light, ect. etc. Are the mechanical engines better if one wanted to use biodiesel?

[Mieser]

As far as I know you can fool the stock PCM into providing signals to your stock gauge cluster through the PCI bus, but you will have to black out the check engine light and disable the chime. To get the tach signal to work you have to build a tone ring for the crank sensor, then fool the stock jeep computer into thinking the engine is running by pulsing the cam sensor wire. This should let the tach work. Hesco has built some crank sensor rings into from harmonic balancers for other jeep conversions, that is worth looking at.

All this is just a way to fool the stock computer into providing some gauge outputs.

I have seen WVO and SVO conversions on about every diesel on the market. I don't think in a proper conversion that the engine knows the difference in fuel as long as it is of decent quality and well filtered.

[AEV Dave]

Well, the simple fact is that you can put any motor into any car with enough determination (and money!). The problem is that when you get out of the OE engineering, the reliability starts to diminish exponentially.
The DGE stuff is mostly aimed at OE engineers doing development work that have access to the factory codes. They would do the average guy no good because even though you had the hardware, you wouldn't know what to tell the hardware what to do. Chrysler has always been very tight lipped about the software, which is why you don't see much stuff out there compared with say Chevrolet. In order to reverse engineer the signals, you would be looking at spending more money in software and testing hardware than a couple new Jeeps cost (ask me how I know)
You can "hotrod" stuff, like the tach pickup, but again you just get into one off prototype stuff...the first time they do something at the factory's it normally doesn't holdup...they learn and redo parts many many times before it arrives in your driveway, thats why these things are so reliable.

dh

[butcher_block]

maybe mopar/jeep will offer CRD plug and play kits like they did for the hemi

o well one can dream

[jingram]

Pardon my naivety. Perhaps Dave or somebody else can shed light on this. Does Chrysler tightly control ordering parts for foreign vehicles? I mean clearly they are building and shipping JK diesels with the 2.8 now for export markets. Which means that OEM wiring harnesses, ECUs, and sensors exist. Are these impossible to come by from Chrysler? What about ordering from an overseas dealer? I know with Toyota, it is simply a matter of acquiring a part number and most dealers can order in any part in the system. Even if one was forced to source these items from Australia or the European market, wouldn't it be cheaper, not to mention cleaner with OE quality, than to try and roll your own? Dave, with AEVs close ties to Jeep, perhaps you can best explain the situation?

Nevermind, I just realized this was posted in the TJ forum. My apologies!

Rgds,
Jack

[Mieser]

Well, the simple fact is that you can put any motor into any car with enough determination (and money!). The problem is that when you get out of the OE engineering, the reliability starts to diminish exponentially.

This is true. I would like to keep everything rather stock. If they would have just built a Diesel Rubicon Unlimited I wouldn't have these problems.

The DGE stuff is mostly aimed at OE engineers doing development work that have access to the factory codes. They would do the average guy no good because even though you had the hardware, you wouldn't know what to tell the hardware what to do. Chrysler has always been very tight lipped about the software, which is why you don't see much stuff out there compared with say Chevrolet. In order to reverse engineer the signals, you would be looking at spending more money in software and testing hardware than a couple new Jeeps cost (ask me how I know)

Thats disheartening. I did notice that the Bosch ECM controlling the diesel has been 'hacked' and can be flashed with performance software now.

The J2534 protocols are also promising. The average person can now buy the equivalent or a DRB III or StarScan tool and reflash the DCW modules.

I have also found some people that have started to hack the jeep coding. Call me stubborn, but I don't see why jeep just doesn't release the code. I know they are still making money on spare parts though. Maybe I am just bored and need something to do.

You can "hotrod" stuff, like the tach pickup, but again you just get into one off prototype stuff...the first time they do something at the factory's it normally doesn't holdup...they learn and redo parts many many times before it arrives in your driveway, thats why these things are so reliable.

I know, but I like to build stuff too...why should DCX have all the fun!

Dave, did you use the ABS module on your white TJ? It provides a speed signal reference in the liberty CRD to the ECM right?

[AEV Dave]

Normally when you try to order a BUX part (export) it rejects the order...that being said I have successfully ordered a few BUX parts, they try to limit it so that a dealer can't order the wrong part, but some obviously slip through.

I did not use the ABS module...I already had too many with the ECM and stupid gigantic 545 controller. I had Jordan wrap up the speed signal into his box for mine. At some point I would love to convert mine to a manual and get rid of the controller and the insane amount of wiring that goes with it. If there was a manual liberty sold in the states, the conversion would be quite a bit simpler.

I have driven the JK diesels, they feel about the same as a 4.7 (so does the one in my TJ) but the manual is so nice...auto might be faster, but the manual is the best driving JK there is currently...well besides a HEMI.

dh

[NYCBrute]

I have to say that I am glad that this is being discussed so in depth. I know that it is not cost effective to install a Diesel in a TJ, but I see it more as providing the engine that should be in a Jeep...as well as Futureproofing of sorts. I always thought of the 3.0 CRD in the wrangler but having come across a 2.8 CRD for sale I am very interested learning as much as I could about this topic.

Now Only if I had a garage to work in with Mieser and Dave as my build buddies. ;)

[Jdemonto]

Normally when you try to order a BUX part (export) it rejects the order...that being said I have successfully ordered a few BUX parts, they try to limit it so that a dealer can't order the wrong part, but some obviously slip through.

I did not use the ABS module...I already had too many with the ECM and stupid gigantic 545 controller. I had Jordan wrap up the speed signal into his box for mine. At some point I would love to convert mine to a manual and get rid of the controller and the insane amount of wiring that goes with it. If there was a manual liberty sold in the states, the conversion would be quite a bit simpler.

I have driven the JK diesels, they feel about the same as a 4.7 (so does the one in my TJ) but the manual is so nice...auto might be faster, but the manual is the best driving JK there is currently...well besides a HEMI.

dh


Dave, They do make a manual KJ CRD euro spec...How hard could it be getting a Euro trans into the states?

Jason

[Mieser]

The manual transmission 2.8 CRDs in the current JKs use the NSG-370-6 if I remember right. I wonder if they make more than one model because of bell-housings? The 2.8CRD has a bell-housing plate on the back of the engine that sets the pattern of the transmission. I would be guessing that the NSG-370-6 only has one bell-housing pattern...maybe the same 4.0L pattern that was used in the states? Maybe the only parts a person would need would be the bell-housing/engine plate and the flywheel? Those BUX parts could be really hard to get though......

[AEV Dave]

Yep, they make it for export and its sweet. Yes the bellhousing is different but the bellhousing and trans case are all one pc, so you need the whole thing, plus the clutch and flywheel and whatever other small pcs that will drive you nuts trying to get from Europe or Aus. Yes I could get one if I really wanted it...just too busy right now.

dh

[Mieser]

GEEEESSSS,

I have been studying the wiring and researching the CRD swap. Basically at this point I am still in the process of trying to understand what is going on.

I think the key to the system is the front control module. Is this basically what you guys built at AEV to allow the swap to function cleanly? In the FSM the purpose of the FCM is listed as...

The KJ diesel is equipped with a Gateway module, which is referred to as the Front Control Module (FCM). The FCM transfers messages between
the Controller Area Network (CAN) bus and the Programmable Communication Interface (PCI) bus. The FCM receives inputs from various sensors/modules and communicates those values to the ECM over the CAN bus network. The CAN bus network on the KJ is for inter-module communication
only. The CAN Bus network consists of the following modules:

-Antilock Brake Module
-Front Control Module
-Engine Control Module

Diagnosis is done using the DRBIII. The DRBIII utilizes the SCI Transmit circuit to communicate with the ECM. The FCM and the ABS module utilize the PCI bus to communicate with the DRBIII. Communication between these modules is essential for proper vehicle operation. The FCM and ECM will set DTCs if a fault occurs within the bus network. Refer to the Communication section for all the communication related DTCs.

I guess I need to build a new FCM module.....mmmmmm. Reverse engineering is fun. Dave mentioned similar stuff like this in earlier posts. I am just trying to get a more complete picture.

[AEV Dave]

I used the FCM in mine for most of the gateway, there were just a few details that Jordan had to do.

Wait till you get to the wires that are listed as "undetermined" in the factory service manual!:D

The biggest suggestion I could give Mieser or anyone else interested is to buy a wrecked KJ and start with the whole thing, otherwise it will cost an absolute fortune.

dh

[Mieser]

More thinking...

The 'gateway' module must....

-Translate CAN-C to J1850 both ways.

-Provide a speed signal reference for the ECU. This takes the place of the ABS module ( on the CAN-C bus in the KJ ). I have no idea what this message is going to have to be yet, but this is 'wheel' speed. I don't know where AEV took this signal from though. The KJ np242 doesn't have a VSS sensor that I can see in the FSM at all.....but it might from other applications or just be 'plugged' from the factory. The speed signal no matter where is comes from needs to also be used to provide a PCI message for the instrument cluster for the speedometer to work.

-Receive the voltage signals from the A/C pressure sensor, oil pressure, fuel level, and water in fuel sensor. It takes these signals and converts them either to the CAN-C network or the PCI network. I think the a/c pressure signal has to be sampled and broadcast as a CAN-C signal to the ECU to tell it to turn the a/c clutch on and off. The oil pressure signal as far as I can tell only has to get changed to a PCI message for the instrument cluster. The fuel level is the same way, PCI message to the instrument cluster. The water in fuel sensor also goes to a PCI message. I don't think the factory TJ/LJ cluster has this feature though.

- I don't completely understand the SCI network. My guess is that it functions as a diagnostic and programming network for the modules connected to it. I don't know if there is any intermodule communication with this network? The factory FCM module does have the ability to set DTC codes, so the SCI network might be used to read those and perhaps flash updates to the module?

-The gateway module also needs to receive a CAN-C message from the ECM and convert it into the proper PCI message to provide a Tachometer signal. I don't think it really matters if you have a gasoline engine instrument cluster. The red line wouldn't really match, but the needle could still read whatever value you want it to.

-I think the ECM talks directly to the TCU. I don't think the gateway module needs to manage any functions there?

-I also don't know for sure how the ECM manages the low range in the transfer case. I think it is just a direct input from the transfer case switch. The speed signal is independent of the low range gearing function I think.

-I wonder if I would need to build in the same trouble codes that the FCM had in it into the new gateway module? Did you guys do this at AEV?

-If you where going to all the trouble to build the module you could also use it for the 'easter egg' features that AEV mentioned on there Hemi conversations.
The possibilities here are pretty dang broad depending on how many circuits you tapped into as triggers. Some the the Chrysler radios are heavily controllable by the PCI network for instance. I possibilities with stuff like this is pretty endless......

[Mieser]

Dave,

Thanks for updating. I hadn't figured you used the factory FCM. I wrote the last post before I saw your last post. Did your guys 'gateway' transmit on the CAN-C and j1850? I would think you needed to use a CAN-C message for the speed signal if you didn't use the ABS stuff. CAN-C scares me....

How the heck can the FSM have "undetermined" wires in it....its the FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL!!! GEESSSS

I am starting with a complete KJ and LJ when I do this...thats for sure. It might be a wrecked KJ, but complete.

[AEV Dave]

You're on the right track, but I actually think you're making harder than it is. Just think about what systems you need to modify and what you can leave alone. You can get everything but the speed signal pretty easy. We took it off the rear output speed sensor message and accounted for 4WD low in code. If you were willing to leave the Jeep PCM and transfercase in along with the ECM, FCM, and TCM you could get everything you need. You would have a nest of wires and computers, but it would work. Then you have to deal with the Cooling Module (Intercooler, AC and Radiator) Just wait till Moab.

Got to go, got a 5am to Detroit.

dh

[Mieser]

Thanks for the input Dave.

I wrote that long summary before I knew you guys used the FCM. I think it will be less complex with it in there.

The only thing needed for signals from the gateway would be the can-c speed signal, and a PCI tach and speed signal? Are the other gauge PCI signals ( oil pressure, water temp, fuel, volts ) close enough to work just using the CRD FCM and TJ gauge cluster? That would make life easier.

By the cooling module do you mean the physical components or the wiring? It looks like you just use the stock KJ stuff in a new mount behind the TJ grill shell. I start looking into the parts. I had never seen a viscous heating unit...that was different. I am surprised that there is a mechanical fan AND a high and low speed electric fan system. Do you think the stock KJ stuff is worth it, or would an custom radiator and intercooler be a cleaner install? The KJ stuff looked pretty darn tight in there.

I guess I will just keep doing research to pass the time till EJS. I do like the LJ platform. The JK is a bit bigger than I thought it was going to be, but that earthroamer camper is pretty trick.

[Jdemonto]

I would just buy a wrecked KJ diesel.....Or a high mile one!! I bought a KJ 2.8 Diesel from the east coast..out here they are worth GOLD!! I also found links to insurance auctions and $7500-$8500 buys you a Rolled liberty CRD VS Buying a good one with 20-30K for $18-20K

I am chomping at the bit for the EJS news!!!

Maybe a hemi swap, drove a 300C hemi to Northern AZ last night..WOW..Thats some serious power!!

Jason

[JeepinJon]

I would just buy a wrecked KJ diesel.....Or a high mile one!! I bought a KJ 2.8 Diesel from the east coast..out here they are worth GOLD!! I also found links to insurance auctions and $7500-$8500 buys you a Rolled liberty CRD VS Buying a good one with 20-30K for $18-20K

I am chomping at the bit for the EJS news!!!

Maybe a hemi swap, drove a 300C hemi to Northern AZ last night..WOW..Thats some serious power!!

Jason

I would get a wrecked one over a high mileage one as long as it doesn't have the damage in the front.

[Mieser]

I'm going to look for a fairly light rollover....

[NYCBrute]

I have a lead on a lightly used 2.8 motor with about 18K along with the NP242 transfercase and 5sp auto. also included all engine accessories (water pump, pwr steering pump, alternator, a/c compressor, etc) are all still in place and undisturbed with hoses and connectors. The battery cables, engine control computer, and ecu harness are still attached and in place. The transmission control computer and transmission harness are still attached and in place. steering column with its security lockset (matched to this ECU and VIN/engine control computer combo) and the ignition key after the motor (same vehicle, same vendor).

Does this look to be mostly complete? Also there has been much discussion for wrecked KJs for about $8,000 should you be able to find them...what should be a fair price for the above?

Just looking to complete an uber exploratory Brute

[Mieser]

How long till EJS again? I hope its good news!

I love the old TJ/LJ platform and all the accessories for it, but designing a wiring harness for this swap is giving me a headache.

Dave, tell me to wait for EJS again!

[Mieser]

I heard an interesting rumor today...

Mopar is working on a diesel engine swap kit for 97-06 wranglers based on a VM 2.8 turbo diesel similar to the liberty engine, perhaps based off the TJL platform that was built for the military. Supposedly perhaps an EJS release!

I don't know about you......but I think that is a freaking SWEET rumor! Care to comment Dave? :)

[Mieser]

More info from a blog on 4wheeloffroad.com

Many jeepers have been waiting anxiously to swap a diesel into their Jeep. Their low-end torque and trail driveability, not to mention their fuel economy, has put diesels at the top of many jeepers wish list.

The wait is almost over! Jeep Performance, a division of Mopar Performance, is working on a stand-alone diesel engine swap kit to drop the 2.8 diesel that first appeared in the Jeep Liberty into your TJ, YJ, CJ, or? While we'll have more details (and maybe a photo or two) after Jeep Safari in Moab, this is the real deal and is going to happen. Everything needed to install the diesel mill into a Jeep will come with the kit - including a stand-alone wiring harness and non-EGR motor! You may have heard that some Liberty diesels had problems that were caused by a malfunctioning Exhaust Gas Recirculation system. The Jeep Performance diesel swap kit's 2.8 diesel doesn't have the troublesome EGR, so expect it to be problem-free. We'll get you more information when we get it. Stay tuned...

[Jdemonto]

More info from a blog on 4wheeloffroad.com

Many jeepers have been waiting anxiously to swap a diesel into their Jeep. Their low-end torque and trail driveability, not to mention their fuel economy, has put diesels at the top of many jeepers wish list.

The wait is almost over! Jeep Performance, a division of Mopar Performance, is working on a stand-alone diesel engine swap kit to drop the 2.8 diesel that first appeared in the Jeep Liberty into your TJ, YJ, CJ, or? While we'll have more details (and maybe a photo or two) after Jeep Safari in Moab, this is the real deal and is going to happen. Everything needed to install the diesel mill into a Jeep will come with the kit - including a stand-alone wiring harness and non-EGR motor! You may have heard that some Liberty diesels had problems that were caused by a malfunctioning Exhaust Gas Recirculation system. The Jeep Performance diesel swap kit's 2.8 diesel doesn't have the troublesome EGR, so expect it to be problem-free. We'll get you more information when we get it. Stay tuned...




HOLY.......


My dreams have been answered!!!!!!!!!!!!


Jason

[AEV Dave]

Ta Da!

Lets just hope they can actually pull it off. Its a pretty small group of guys trying to get this done surrounded by an entire company wondering why.

dh

[butcher_block]

me too
not for a jeep but for a dak
wish i have the $$$ for a brute
now to find the right dak to mod up well hell maybe even a TJ then later when $$ refills get the brute kit
so what you all think TJ CRD think i could make 27 MPG if not jacked too high and didnt have monster tires under it

[AEV Dave]

Before I pulled the 2.8L out of the Liberty for my Wrangler I drove it around for about a month and a half. If I babied it, I would see 25-26, normal was about 23.5 and rodding the shit out of it was about 19-20. In the Wrangler I see about 20...sometimes 21. I would think in even an unmodified TJ you would be looking in the 23-24 area.

The Mopar program is trying to use the T1 (military TJ) parts primarily. One of the biggest performance differences between that version and the liberty is the non-variable turbo. I haven't driven a T1, but I understand they do pretty well. The T1 version is WAY simpler, no EGR, no variable turbo, no Viscous coolant heater, no AC (I don't know what Mopar has planned for that), no cruise control, etc...It has about 1/10 the amount of wiring, and would be a great motor to have in a Jeep.

dh

[butcher_block]

you know i think i can deal with that and the more simple the better sorta plug and play like the hemi is
now to email my brother in OZ and have him start looking for a flywheel and clutch for it
6 speed oil burner here i come

wander how much im going to have to sock back to buy one

[Mieser]

I really hope this comes together.....

I found some specs on the military T1

http://www.aav.com.eg/diesel_data.html

[butcher_block]

eck
120hp 225 footpounds
wander how much it will take to get it back up to stock CRD power

[Mieser]

The engine is generally the same( as the liberty ) other than the turbo I think. The computer is still a bosch CP3 based injection system. I don't see any reason that this engine can't make the same numbers with the proper turbo...perhaps even the stock one.

[Jdemonto]

The engine is generally the same( as the liberty ) other than the turbo I think. The computer is still a bosch CP3 based injection system. I don't see any reason that this engine can't make the same numbers with the proper turbo...perhaps even the stock one.


With a turbo upgrade and a chip upgrade there should be no questions about not enough power!:D

Jason

[mtjeeper]

What kind of power are we talking about - how would it compare to the HEMI?

[Mieser]

I was saw a post on a dyno post on a liberty forum that listed a liberty with a reprogrammed computer putting 184hp and 334 ft lbs to the WHEELS through the 5 speed automatic.

I don't really see why people are always wanted to compare the Hemi to a diesel engine swap. I think we are talking about two different animals. I think Dave listed the power of his Liberty swap between the 4.0 and Hemi.

I think it would be a great swap....but not like a Hemi swap, or trying to accomplish the same things.

[mtjeeper]

I've been considering a HEMI swap for some time now but love diesel engines. I really only need enough hp/torque to easily pull a trailer upwards of the tow limit of my Unlimited. However I want to run 35" or 37" tires too. I like the idea of using biodiesel as well - maybe a homebrew :)

[JeepinJon]

The Hemi is more about horesepower, but with a diesel you will get better fuel effeciency, and be able to idle over everything. For rock crawling, and off road it would be difficult to beat a diesel.

[Jdemonto]

Heres some pics of our run from yesterday, note the 2.8 Crd Rubicon that Hotwire built....Def still has some bugs to work out!

Heres all the photos:

http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/62/562/1/13/82/2811113820090072657OdgPbk_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/album/562805209VPlwhy)


166

167

168

169

170



Jason

[Mieser]

So what where the bugs?

[Jdemonto]

So what where the bugs?

The bugs are:

Turns off Overdrive
Speedo not connected


The owner may bring it by to have my Diesel tech take a look at

[Mieser]

Intresting....

Turns off Overdrive

As in the overdrives ( 545 has two overdrive gears ) will not work at all? I wonder if the switch for the TJ overdrive is opposite ( closed vs open ) than the liberty switch? I don't think the TCM needs the overall speed signal from the ABS module....there is a forward and rear speed sensor in the 545 transmission. I will have to look up some more info on the TCM pin out for the overdrive button.

Speedo not connected

As far as I know the liberty FCM sends the PCI signal for the speedometer in the liberty. I don't think its the same signal as the TJ/LJ, and it might have to go through the body module?

Do you know what they did for the liberty ABS module? It provides a signal for the CRD ECM for overall speed. I think this is used for the cruise control. I wonder how the engine would work without it? Dave mentioned in a previous post the they used the rear shaft speed signal in the 545 and there 'gateway' module to provide the CAN-C message for the speed signal for the ECM. They also programmed in the low range gear function into this or something.....

Did he mention what kind of mileage he was getting? How did he like the swap?

Thank you for posting up the pictures and information.

[Jdemonto]

Intresting....

Turns off Overdrive

As in the overdrives ( 545 has two overdrive gears ) will not work at all? I wonder if the switch for the TJ overdrive is opposite ( closed vs open ) than the liberty switch? I don't think the TCM needs the overall speed signal from the ABS module....there is a forward and rear speed sensor in the 545 transmission. I will have to look up some more info on the TCM pin out for the overdrive button.

Speedo not connected

As far as I know the liberty FCM sends the PCI signal for the speedometer in the liberty. I don't think its the same signal as the TJ/LJ, and it might have to go through the body module?

Do you know what they did for the liberty ABS module? It provides a signal for the CRD ECM for overall speed. I think this is used for the cruise control. I wonder how the engine would work without it? Dave mentioned in a previous post the they used the rear shaft speed signal in the 545 and there 'gateway' module to provide the CAN-C message for the speed signal for the ECM. They also programmed in the low range gear function into this or something.....

Did he mention what kind of mileage he was getting? How did he like the swap?

Thank you for posting up the pictures and information.


The O/D switch is hooked up...it works and after a short distance it shuts off.

I will have him come on here and post up as he knows what wires went where!

After wheeling with a CRD I have to say I am waiting until Jeep offers up a conversion as he was not happy about the experimnetal costs of doing the conversion which is still not finished! I did like the smell of Diesel on the trail!

He said he was getting 16MPG with 4.88's and 35" tires so the overdrive not working is killing the MPG's

Jason

[Mieser]

Diesel update information......this is from the JP magazine blog. It was there! It is only still a concept however....

It's basically the same 2.8L VM Motori engine offered in the JK (tjl?) Wrangler overseas. Because of its industrial background (it's also used in overseas equipment) it should be easily swapped into older Jeeps. In fact, only a thin adapter plate is needed to install it behind any of the later 4.0L Jeep transmissions. The most likely candidate would be the NV3550 because of it's durability. The Jeep used for this Mopar swap started as a 4.0L TJ with a NV3550. Does the driveable torque and 30-percent increase in fuel economy make you drool with envy? Don't whip out your credit card just yet, the crate diesel introduced during Easter Jeep Safari is only a concept product for Mopar at this point. In the past Mopar crate engines have been a little on the expensive and overpriced side. How much would you pay for a 2.8L crate diesel?

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/Mieserphoto/jeep-crate-diesel.jpg

Super large picture....

http://image.jpmagazine.com/f/editorials/jeep-crate-diesel-engine-update/8224151+cr1+re0+ar1/jeep-crate-diesel.jpg

At least its something!

[Jdemonto]

I guess Cost like anything is the major factor. I have been researching the cummins 4bt since its a simple repower due to the fact it has no electronics!

I have found that in the past year trans adapters are now avail to run GM auto transmissions.

The do it your self 4bt should only cost arround $12K (including 31 gal tank)

After wheeling with the 2.8 crd I know feel the only way i would consider the swap if its Mopar backed with a wiring harness/computer(s)

Jason

[butcher_block]

is there any way to get to talk with the team as i would like to know some more

is there an email or something (i understand that it might not be good to post it out here but maybe in PM)

[Jdemonto]

is there any way to get to talk with the team as i would like to know some more

is there an email or something (i understand that it might not be good to post it out here but maybe in PM)

Maybe Dave can chime in? Looks like AEV had helped to some degree?

Jason

[AEV Dave]

I don't know if any of the guys working on the project are watching this thread on not. If they are and want to talk, I'll leave it up to them to PM you out of respect to them.

AEV didn't have much to do other than help with a few parts here and there. Like I've mentioned before, its a pretty small team of guys working on the project and it was done in a very short amount of time. I think we all just need to be patient and see what develops.

dh

[butcher_block]

yep thats how i was thinking
thanks dave for letting them play if they want
im just trying to get a game plan ready fr next driver as i think i ll be building what i want not getting it off a car lot

[Jdemonto]

Thanks for the reply dave! I will be patient, My I-6 Has plently of life left!

Jason

[JeepinJon]

It seems like Jeep is finally getting serious about allowing others to complete a diesel conversion sucessfully on their own. I am definitley excited about seeing where this goes.

[Jdemonto]

More info on Diesel wrangler concept (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/08/mopar-opens-the-jeep-dodge-toybox-and-builds-the-psychotic-six/)


Also I like the (black) JKL 110" stretch!!

[offroader613]

Hmm............ the fender kit and rims on the TJ look really familiar.

[JeepinJon]

Hmm............ the fender kit and rims on the TJ look really familiar.

From my limited knowledge on the subject I know that in the past AEV has had only limited creative freedom on the vehicles they have done for Mopar, and by limited I mean if Mopar wants a high line kit, that is all that AEV does, or I know they have installed the 6.1 into a JK for the Mopar Ultimate JK vehicle. I know on the All Access JK they had this sticker on at SEMA

http://www.project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=41333&g2_serialNumber=2

but at that time all I could see on it from AEV were the wheels and tires. If I could have any of them though I would use the Sarge

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/04/sarge.jpg
as a color for an AEV JK Unlimited. I think it would be a very nice look.

[Mieser]

Thanks for the info update. I got kinda burned out on this project for a bit. I hope something comes up. That diesel wrangler looks like it might be a TJL, or at least its using the front bumper and lift/tow rings from one :)

I still think the CRD liberty engine swap is possible 100%.....its just not an easy swap. I think the people that where interested in diesel conversions are getting scared away by the high fuel prices. I have few words of encouragement...make your own!

[Mieser]

More pics and some information...nothing really new....good pics though...

http://blogs.4wdandsportutility.com/6232286/editorials/diesel-jeep-swap-kit/index.html

Many jeepers have been waiting anxiously to swap a diesel into their Jeep. Their low-end torque and trail driveability, not to mention their fuel economy, has put diesels at the top of many jeepers wish list.

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/editorials/diesel-jeep-swap-kit/8437689+cr1+re0+ar1/jeep-wrangler-tj-diesel.jpg

The wait is almost over! Jeep Performance, a division of Mopar Performance, is working on a stand-alone diesel engine swap kit to drop the 2.8 diesel that first appeared in the Jeep Liberty into your TJ, YJ, CJ, or? While we'll have more details (and maybe a photo or two) after Jeep Safari in Moab, this is the real deal and is going to happen.


http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/editorials/diesel-jeep-swap-kit/8437692+cr1+re0+ar1/jeep-diesel-swap-detail.jpg

Everything needed to install the diesel mill into a Jeep will come with the kit - including a stand-alone wiring harness and non-EGR motor! You may have heard that some Liberty diesels had problems that were caused by a malfunctioning Exhaust Gas Recirculation system. The Jeep Performance diesel swap kit's 2.8 diesel doesn't have the troublesome EGR, so expect it to be problem-free. We'll get you more information when we get it. Stay tuned...

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/editorials/diesel-jeep-swap-kit/8437695+cr1+re0+ar1/jeep-diesel-engine.jpg

[offroader613]

Can't wait till it comes out.

[butcher_block]

all i can do at this point is hope it comes out not when

i have a great project that i want to do but it would seem only half done short of the CRD

[Jdemonto]

Could one of these end up in a Jeep?

http://virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20055&stc=1&d=1207881439

Heres part of the press release:

Autoblog.com (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/10/mercedes-unveils-new-range-of-diesel-four-cylinders/)

With lots of AMG goodness on the road and in the pipeline, something's got to balance out Mercedes-Benz' carbon footprint. So M-B announced today that it's releasing a new range of four-cylinder diesel mills that balances emissions, fuel economy and performance. The top-of-the-line 2.1-liter oilburner is producing 204 hp and 368 lb.-ft. of torque, or around 20-percent more than its predecessor, while returning better mileage and reducing emissions by over 10-percent. When fitted in the new C-class (250CDI) it's able to make the run to 60 in 7.7 seconds while getting 46 mpg.

The other upcoming C-class models will include the 220 CDI and 200 CDI, producing 170 hp and 136 hp respectively. The boost in performance and fuel efficiency comes from the use of new twin-stage turbochargers, more efficient exhaust recirculation, intercoolers, injection systems and a revised common-rail setup.

[BurntOrange]

Is there an e-mail address we can send a msg to supporting the cause for this kit? Remember Mopar did come out with the 4.0l MPI kit for the 4.2l 258. It could happen!

[JeepinJon]

Here is a link to give Chrysler your opinions.

https://www.chryslerllc.com/en/chrysler_listens/?bid=chryslerllc&pid=chryslerllc.com&adid=www.chryslerllc.com/en/&rid=&hrf=http://www.chryslerllc.com

From this they are taking a select few and creating an advisory board of consumers to tell Chrysler what they want. I am on the board and I have been pushing for a diesel, but I have yet to hear anything solid from Chrysler.

[offroader613]

Cool, I made it too.

[butcher_block]

sorry jeeepers but for me i want the swap so i can put in it a 2nd gen std cab short bed 4x4 dakota. i need the bed and some times towing

since i know i will never see an M80 made and it would cost too much to cut down a nitro to look like this

[JeepinJon]

sorry jeeepers but for me i want the swap so i can put in it a 2nd gen std cab short bed 4x4 dakota. i need the bed and some times towing

since i know i will never see an M80 made and it would cost too much to cut down a nitro to look like this

From what I am hearing from some of the Jeep engineers the JT will be coming out in 2010, and the Dakota will be going away. Just thought it may be easier, and cheaper than converting the Nitro into a pickup.

[butcher_block]

in my looking for a jeep/truck to drop the kit into
would it be better to have the new 2000+ ECM style or would the older work better with less under control of a computer (read speedo and what not)

[Mieser]

Back to the top again.....

I have still been day dreaming about this project. I wish that the Mopar kit would surface in the market!

My friends and I are planning a 4 day expedition style trip in the Montana/Idaho back country this June. It looks like I am going to be winch sherpa....

[AEV Dave]

That 2.1L MB Engine sounds awesome...thats some serious power and efficiency out of such a small motor...too bad all the "stuff" is bigger than the motor!

Meiser, Give us a call if you get near msla.

dh

[Mieser]

Dave, you have a PM

[Mieser]

I am bringing this thread back from the dead.

I just can't drop the idea all together. I have taken a step back from the research but I still have my ears out for information. Below is the link for the Prindle buildup of the a CRD cherokee.

http://www.prindlemfg.com/project_detail.php?projectID=2

I was also investigating the idea of a manual transmission. While Dave had mentioned some stuff about this in previous posts I found this information.

The Jeep 2005 - 06 Liberty comes with a 2.8L DOHC Turbo Diesel that utilizes the standard Mopar Small Block bolt pattern. Pic 2 is the "export" bellhousing used on the Jeep CRD 2.8 diesel. (Currently not offered in the US with a 5-speed). The Dakota pickup 3.9L V6 bellhousing also makes the swap possible.

This would be pretty interesting. I don't know what you would have to do for a flywheel however? Attached is a pic of the 2.8 with a bellhousing attached and a flywheel tucked in there.

This was from this great bellhousing conversion thread.

http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/showthread.php?t=4740

Here is the link for a good thread on another CRD swap in the works, this time into an MJ. Its a current work in progress.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=955062

The best Liberty CRD board I have found thus far is over at LOST KJ.

http://www.lostkjs.com/forum/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=5&topicdays=0&start=0

[ryancrouch]

How would a Td5 engine from a Defender work in a TJ (and where would you get one?)?

[Mieser]

I think it would make a pretty good engine....

Anything can work with enough time, money and smarts.

I have seem the TD5 in some of the Bowler type stuff for Dakar so a stand alone system might work? The hardest part about diesel engine swaps isn't just making the motor run, but having all the little things work in the jeep also. I want a seamless engine conversion where everything from the tach, to the check engine light, to the cruise control works just like stock. Thats the hard part of any conversion.

[butcher_block]

i would have to see if you can get the flywheel part # form a friend in AU or UK.
then see if you local dealer can pull the part number here in the states.

if not it might be tricky and spendy to have one ordered and shipped from over seas
i too would rather have a 5-6 speed man.
with the nv3500 and 3550 bolting up thats great but there not rated at more then 300 ft lb s (340 in HD )
sadly next step seems to be NV4500 and the extra 10 pounds in case weight it brings (granny gear i dont want too)

[Mieser]

If I was going to do a 5-speed manual I would do the ax-15. Its a factory jeep application in the TJ yet you can buy upgraded models through aftermarket sources. The most common is the 'terminator' transmission from Rockland Standard Gear. It is suppose to the rated over 400 ft lbs. Its basically a custom built transmission directly from Aisin. The ax-15 is very similar to the 'turbo' and v6 transmissions from Toyota.

If the back of the Liberty CRD in the USA is the same as the hemi? Does anyone know if the liberty 545 automatic is case specific to the CRD or is it just a 'normal' 545 that would bolt behind a hemi.

Why not use the 6 speed that came in the dakota and 1500? It was the Getrag 238 if I remember right. I don't know what the bellhousing pattern is, but its not as big as the G56....thats for sure.

I like a great working automatic off road. The problem is that I have only seen a handful of them over the years. Most automatics are just 'stupid' to me. The CRD Liberty suffers from some transmission problems but most have been overcome with upgraded parts. The only big problem that hasn't been overcome is the 'F37' issue. This was a TSB upgrade that didn't make anyone really happy. There are some people working on hacking the jeep programing. Once that is done the doors are going to be open for custom programing.

I think building a super stock jeep like they should have from the factory would be very cool.....basically a 2005-2006 Unlimited with the 2.8 CRD (auto or manual), and the rubicon package (transfer case, axles, etc). I guess that is what I wish jeep would have built from the factory.

[Mieser]

Never mind

[JeepinJon]

I know that there are obviously emmisions issues with putting this into a Jeep at the factory, but I just don't understand why Jeep doesn't offer these on the aftermarket yet? They know what they did to put in in originaly, and had supliers lined up. I would think if Jeep wanted to get behind this swap it could be relatively easy.

[Mieser]

yup, don't know why they are not.

I know that the higher than unleaded diesel fuel prices are scaring a lot of people away from buying. I can't see the reason diesel would ever be more expensive? Honestly diesel fuel prices jacked way up just after diesel vehicle sales in the US started to take off again. Now the new diesel market is really slow. Also, the ULSD fuel came about the same time diesels where set to take off. So did the new emissions requirements.

[JeepinJon]

If I ever see a viable option for a crate engine and motor swap kit I would jump all over it. I can make the fuel in my garage and it would be less than $1 per gallon.

[Mieser]

Exactly!

Alternative fuel CHOICE is the best thing about diesel engines. A diesel engine can run on a ton of different fuels with very little work.....

[butcher_block]

for me the kit might be better then the whole crate option

the crate would likely cost more then the hemi crate and then it would not sell as well with the cost of ULSD higher then 92 oct. round here

but if i could get a intake and computer/wire kit then find the motor in the junk yard that would save me loads and i bet make a 5-6 speed work out better as they would run it with out the auto. computer

btw this would not be a trail rig for me just a fun driver /tow truck

[Mieser]

Personally I would love to see a kit that would allow you to start with a CRD liberty. However, there where not that many CRD liberty jeeps and the number of people that would be interested in a diesel conversion is pretty small. I would be interested to know how many Hemi conversions that AEV did on the TJ conversion. Last time I talked with Dave it was more than I thought.

Dave? How many Hemi TJs have you done?

Anyways. The market segment would be pretty small.

Having said that. I would love to see this thread turn into a how-to thread for the conversion. The wiring harness alone would be a show stopper for most people, not to mention 'gateway' modules, new upper front control arms, etc. I think if it would be well enough documented the determined people could perform this swap. Personally I would be up for building a wiring harness board for a project like this. I have listed some potiential sources for something like a gateway module that might work for a conversion like this.

Reverse engineering the Network messages is going to be time consuming. This has been talked about in the past in this tread. There are a few messages that need to be produced in order to get everything to function correctly. I think most of the TJ dash cluster messages could be decoded with a bus logger and a setup that would allow you to feed the logged messages back into a seperate stand alone dash cluster. That way you through some elimination you could figure out what codes did what, and what codes needed to be duplicated. Dave, feel free to just PM me all this information :)

A manual transmission conversion might be the next step. I think the market might be slightly broader if you the Liberty guys could use the same stuff. Honestly I think having a new block plate on the back of the engine might be the easiest way to get everything bolted together. They make tons of these type adapters for the Cummins engines now. Being able to bolt the diesel right up to a stock jeep 4.0L bellhousing pattern would sure make things easy. One thing I mentioned before was that I don't know if the ECM for the CRD is automatic specific? The 545 has its own TCU, but i'm sure the ECM must feed some signals to the 545 TCM?

Enough for now.....more later.

[butcher_block]

right
i know that that im not going to be one of the bigger helps to Jeep swaps as im looking to take a std. cab short bed HD dakota 97-04 and rebuild her
less i can come up with a brute option that gets me 5K tow and 1500Lb bed load

sorry but i need these things right now
a jeep would be great fun but i have to load stuff and haul it

right now i got my eye on a V8 dak that fits the bill with a 3500HD trans and 9.5 inch rear with all the tow options. so i would like to make it into a little pit bull rig but get good fuel mileage
till dodge / jeep comes up with a oil burning M80 (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/1182/Dodge-M80.html) or what ever the jeep side would call it this is what i want

[Jdemonto]

Your better off going mechanical like a cummins 3.3 and using a Gm transmision or a manual trans for less headaches. The computers on the crd are just a huge mess to figure out....I own one and I wold not attempt it and with the hemi becoming affordable if thats even such a thought ultimately thats the way to go.

Heres a site I found a while back

www.4btswaps.com

[Mieser]

No Cummins for me, at least not in a TJ/LJ. Mechanical has its advantages but its not really want I am looking for. I am looking for a more seamless and factory type conversion.

My project wishlist does include a p-pumped 4BT to swap into my old '78 4x4 ford shortbox :) And I would like to do a VW 1.9L TDI-M conversion in my old Willys MB or maybe a Samurai.

Maybe if I knew that it wasn't possible to do the Liberty CRD conversion but Dave had to go and do it........

[butcher_block]

i think that a 3.3 or 3.9bta would be more mass then i would like up front and i cant jsut go to the parts store and get new springs to comp for it as there are jsut 2 sets of torsion bars that i know or for the daks
V6 adn V8 and seeing how the V8 is like 450lb im not sure i want a 750 dry BTA yp there

really the 2.8l CRD meets what im looking for in power and MPG with out having to build up the whole truck to handle more torque then i really need my last dak had the 3.9l mag in it 180 hp and 245 ftlb and it moved along just fine adn towed more then the brakes were any good for. it also got me 18 avg MPG (17 winter) and 22 highway all with 3.90 gears and 31' BFGs

[Jdemonto]

Guys, you should not be worried about weight...You I-6 is heavier than the Crd motor and the 4bt has to be close in weight to the I-6.

Jason

[Mieser]

The I-6 is about 550lbs the 4bt is about 770lbs. I don't know what the CRD 2.8 is. I would guess with the stronger diesel block, aluminum head, and all the accessories it would be within 50lbs of the I-6.

[Jdemonto]

I had a chance to driv ethe wifes CRd and WOW that little 4 banger has some power...Only if there was a way....

Jason

[Mieser]

There IS a way.....AEV proved it.

Now us mortals need to figure it out.

The 2.8 CRD with some slight modifications will lay down almost 200hp and 400ft lbs to the rear wheels to the WHEELS! ( Chip, Muffler, Intake, etc )

The CRD ECM is a Bosch unit and has been cracked and reprogrammed at this time. So I would imagine that end of the CAN-C code ( the code that goes to the Front Control Module ) would be fairly easy to read.

Biggest hurdle is the PCI code for the Dash Cluster......and physically building the wiring harness.

[butcher_block]

thats all the power i would need (least for now :) )

so far as the dash im hoping that using a 98 (if i could find a clean 95-96 that would be fine too) that i can get around some of that
i think that a mechanical dash or mostly would be a benny

[Jdemonto]

Ok guys, develope the conversion kit so we can buy it! The wiring harness is easy, hotwireauto.com has already made one for a friend of mine. There were still issues of the nv242 tcase AKA ODO not working but everything else works great after a 1 1/2 years of tinkering with it!

Jason

[Jdemonto]

This is interesting, what could this mean?

http://dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=11693

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/24/toledo-jeep-liquidating-158-2-8l-diesel-engines-bid-now/

Have you guys thought about this motor? Its a 2.8!

http://www.obwcanada.com/services.html

[Mieser]

The international powerstroke 2.8 is an ok little motor. For the TJ application the turbo is on the wrong side. It would be just forward of the brake system, ABS, and cruise stuff. You would also have to wrap the exhuast around the oil pan to the other side of the chassis ( not a big deal since the 4.0 is like that ).
Its a better fit than the 4bt, but your still going to have to figure out how to get all the stock TJ stuff to work....guages, cruise, etc.

Those dove bid motors are in interesting. There was a thread about them on the LOST board. No one was sure what they where intended to be installed in. Also, I think you have to buy the entire lot of motors.....all of them. Sourcing all the other little parts would be pretty hard.

[butcher_block]

sure wish some one would have had the $$ to get that lot and then resell some of them off. or if jeep would have just set them up and sold them with a computer.

what was the problem with the 242. i was planning a 241 with a 3500 (less it broke then 4500)

BTW any one know how long it takes to get approved on lost i signed up many moons ago and got the email but now mod approve? so i couldnt post to that thread about the CRD for sale with comp and wire.

[Mieser]

I would love to do a 'kit', but I would like to do it on an open source basis. I wouldn't mind building a few extra parts for some people, but I think that if ALL the information is out there on how to do the swap it would make a lot of 'do it yourself' type people pretty dang happy. I don't think very many people would be able to do a swap like this on there own without some help somewhere. I would like to think that I could do most of this on my own, but I just think the computer programing stuff is going to push me a little far.

So my question to everyone in this thread is...where do we want to start?



On another note ( the speed signal 'odo' post )

It was mentioned earlier in this rather long thread about the ABS signal. If I remember right the ABS module generated the speed signal for the CAN-C network in the factory liberty application. Dave ( AEV ) had said that they used a 'gateway' module to generate this signal from the 545 rear output shaft speed signal. Dave also mentioned about the low range function being integrated into this also.

I would guess that the ABS speed signal would feed not only the ECM, perhaps providing cruise control functions. It may be tied into the odometer signal also? The front control module provides some CAN-C to PCI conversion messages for the liberty......hence the FCM may generate the odometer code based off the ABS speed signal? One other downside is that the PCI message for the liberty dash may not be the same as the PCI message for the TJ platform?


Another bonus to an open source project like this is that the 'gateway' module might be capable of converting a variety of signals from a variety of engine conversions into fully functioning TJ PCI codes to make all the factory dash guages work 100%. I don't think any engine conversions are functioning like this other than AEV HEMIs and the AEV CRD?? Does anyone know if the Hotwire jeep or the Prindle jeep have everything working?

lets keep this thread going guys......

[Totenkopf]

I'll be interested in this swap if it ever gets figured out or released by Mopar. I don't know if the 2.8L would be the best engine choice since I've heard about reliability probs in Libertys...but I guess there's not many small diesels out there from which to chose. Since it's going to be expensive anyway, I'd probably prefer the Mercedes built 3.0L, but I'd take whatever I could get. With a Diesel and a hi-cap fuel tank, would make a great expedition truck.

[Mieser]

As far as my research indicates the 'problems' with the liberty CRD powertrain are.....

-The torque converter needs to be replaced with a better unit. There are several on the market to pick from. The problem is something to do with a plastic strator......basically a cheap OEM part that shouldn't have been.

-A factory 'fix' for the shoddy torque converter is the 'F37' TSB. This uses a reflash of the TCM......well.....it doesn't really 'fix' the problem.

-There is an oil bypass/air intake problem that is fixable.

-The EGR works too much....it can be turned down with a a reflash or eliminated.

-The mass airflow sensor needs to be cleaned regularly.

No vehicle is perfect. 95% of the issues are very fixable.

In the US we just don't have a lot of small diesel options as mentioned. The 3.0 v-6 diesel has its own issues too. Nothing is going to be perfect.

The best place to look for info on issues is the LOST KJ board

[Jdemonto]

I bought my wifes CRD knowing the common issues and understanding the fixes etc.

Now, My buddy was working with hotwire to get his CRD running 100%. Last I heard that the only function not hooked up was his speedo and he has a 2003 rubicon with the 241 T case. I am guessing a standard 231 tcase ould not have the speedo issues. So, Hotwire can convert your wiring harness over..Just not sure about the computers unless he was running 2 pcm's?

Jason

[Mieser]

Its tough to know about the speedo....

I have a few friends that are doing a 5.3 v8 swap. One is done, one is still going. They ended up using two computers. The stock jeep computer provides the guages while the GM computer runs the engine. Last time I drove the jeep the tach was wasn't working all the time.

Personally I just don't think using two computers is the way to go for a professional and clean install.

With all TJs the speedo signal is electronic. The early TJs used a gear driven speed sensor in the t-case, on the later (03+) TJs the signal is generated with a tone ring I belive.....I don't know if it was different between Rubicons and others however? I would have to look at the FSM to know if the PCM generates the speed signal for the dash or if the dash cluster does this itself.

Since Jdemonto has both a TJ/LJ and the Diesel liberty sitting around I think he should just do everything and tell us how it all turns out....I'm sure the wife won't mind :)

To do this project we are going to have to start with a running and driving TJ/LJ and a running driving CRD liberty. The bus networks need to be data logged. This would give us a running file of the codes going around on the different networks. The hard part is going to be decifering them. The TJ guage cluster messages might be able to be reverse engineered by using a network interface directly into the TJ guage cluster. By going through the codes, and using a process of elimination, we could isolate the signals that make the speedometer, tachometer, etc work. Finding the CAN-C messages that will provide the ABS speed signal might be a littler harder. I would wonder what would happen if you ran a log session with the ABS hooked up, and with it not hooked up....I wonder if you could more easily isolate that message. I also am wondering if the CAN-C network uses a 'request' based network? Such as the ECM or FCM asking the ABS module for the needed information? Or if the ABS module just broadcasts this message all the time with the proper identifier and urgency code?

Like I have said before. A lot of this research could benifit other engine swaps too. GM code is almost open source so that could be very easy for v8 swap folks if we generated the TJ dash codes and such?

Jdemonto,

Does you friend with the hotwire swap want to join this discussion?

[Jdemonto]

Its tough to know about the speedo....

I have a few friends that are doing a 5.3 v8 swap. One is done, one is still going. They ended up using two computers. The stock jeep computer provides the guages while the GM computer runs the engine. Last time I drove the jeep the tach was wasn't working all the time.

Personally I just don't think using two computers is the way to go for a professional and clean install.

With all TJs the speedo signal is electronic. The early TJs used a gear driven speed sensor in the t-case, on the later (03+) TJs the signal is generated with a tone ring I belive.....I don't know if it was different between Rubicons and others however? I would have to look at the FSM to know if the PCM generates the speed signal for the dash or if the dash cluster does this itself.

Since Jdemonto has both a TJ/LJ and the Diesel liberty sitting around I think he should just do everything and tell us how it all turns out....I'm sure the wife won't mind :)

To do this project we are going to have to start with a running and driving TJ/LJ and a running driving CRD liberty. The bus networks need to be data logged. This would give us a running file of the codes going around on the different networks. The hard part is going to be decifering them. The TJ guage cluster messages might be able to be reverse engineered by using a network interface directly into the TJ guage cluster. By going through the codes, and using a process of elimination, we could isolate the signals that make the speedometer, tachometer, etc work. Finding the CAN-C messages that will provide the ABS speed signal might be a littler harder. I would wonder what would happen if you ran a log session with the ABS hooked up, and with it not hooked up....I wonder if you could more easily isolate that message. I also am wondering if the CAN-C network uses a 'request' based network? Such as the ECM or FCM asking the ABS module for the needed information? Or if the ABS module just broadcasts this message all the time with the proper identifier and urgency code?

Like I have said before. A lot of this research could benifit other engine swaps too. GM code is almost open source so that could be very easy for v8 swap folks if we generated the TJ dash codes and such?

Jdemonto,

Does you friend with the hotwire swap want to join this discussion?


My Friend does not work for hotwire, he has the 2003 tombraider rubicon thats on their website...He knows the guys and I believe everything is running great with 4.88's and 35's he is getting 22-23mpg running biodiesel. I will call him and ask is he can post up here.

PS. my wife would love to donate her crd to me, she rather have gas anyways!!!! J/K I need to find a crd diesel

Jason

[RSMark]

Buy the wiring from HotWireAuto.com and Go to AFW in Montana to do the conversion. Yes I have the Tomb Raider 2003 with a CRD and all works well! If you would like to know more I will, for a small fee, be here to answer any and all questions. Why not do it for free you ask? Go to any dealer and ask for free help and they show you the door. I paid way too much for the info too just give out all the info for free. And if you do as I suggested you will have a great conversion at a great price.

[Mieser]

Sorry....

Go back to the post about this being an open source project. To be frank, if you want to make money go somewhere else. No offense, but you come in here and in your first post ever you ask for a 'fee' for contributing information. That is pretty lame.

Hell. Dave has contributed a lot more information, owns this board, and never asked for anything.

My opinion, you have to prove yourself first....

[Mieser]

On another note.

I only have a minute so this will have to be brief for now.

I was able to locate some literature about the CAN-C bosch network. I haven't read through all of it yet, and I will try and post it later, but it looks like a good primer on how the network works.

So far....

We have three networks?

Can-C ( ecm, fcm, abs )
PCI ( guage cluster?, and body module on the liberty )
SCI? ( transmission? )

[Jdemonto]

I have to save that Randy knows his stuff! The wiring harness would be the easy part since hotwire has already built one and the engine bolts in and mounts can be welded in...Its really the computers which have scared me off, I am willing to pay the added price for the diesel over the hemi...its how much more it will be. Everthing I have read says $13-15K which is double a Hemi in price for the DIY. So get reading and figure out how these puters work and you can likley sell your pcm's on the market when your done.

Jason

[Mieser]

I am going to attach the bosch Can-C manual for others to use.

[butcher_block]

anyone got a good dnyo chart or the RPM range for optimized running/ fuel mileage
im hunting the info for best gearing and trans to look into

[ryancrouch]

What would it take to put a TD5 in one and have it an almost purely mechanical vehicle. I'd like to see one where there is almost no electronics required to run the vehicle thus no computers, etc. I know from Dave it's possible to install some Range Rover suspension parts but what else would be needed? New transmission, etc?

[mflint1513]

Lookin' for more info...

I've found a 2.8l CRD for a price so low I'm going to buy it just on general principal! I've been wanting to do this swap anyway so here I go!

Anyway, I understand that hotwireauto has the harness...just got off the phone with them (Thanks guys!).

Here are my questions right now:
-Can I still run either an AX15 or a NV3550?
-Where can I start with the basics? When I swapped my 258 for a 4.0 on an old CJ7 I had, there were websites that got down to tellin' you what bolts went where! Anyone have the time to do a seriously instructive write up?

[Jdemonto]

Lookin' for more info...

I've found a 2.8l CRD for a price so low I'm going to buy it just on general principal! I've been wanting to do this swap anyway so here I go!

Anyway, I understand that hotwireauto has the harness...just got off the phone with them (Thanks guys!).

Here are my questions right now:
-Can I still run either an AX15 or a NV3550?
-Where can I start with the basics? When I swapped my 258 for a 4.0 on an old CJ7 I had, there were websites that got down to tellin' you what bolts went where! Anyone have the time to do a seriously instructive write up?


There has only been a few swaps that shops have actually done not including chrysler. If ou have the means of doing so I would recomend you do a writeup so we can all learn what to and what not to do. I am thinking Hemi, But my gut is telling me to spend the extra $$$ and time on a Diesel swap that makes sense. The crd would be my #1 choice for many reasons, The computer aspect is very grim though.

Jason

[Mieser]

I have not dropped this idea....especially since I started running some veggie blends in my dodge.

Anyways. I came across this on ebay.....

Jeep Diesel Engine conversion, TJ, YJ, CJ 25 MPG!!
Vehicle Description


Jeep Diesel engine conversion, TJ, YJ, CJ 25 MPG!!
Vehicle Description


Jeep Hemi 5.7 conversion, TJ,CJ,XJ,YJ complete!!
Vehicle Description

This auction is for a complete Jeep diesel 2.8 CRD motor swap to be performed at our shop in Wilmington NC. We are the premier custom fabrication shop on the east coast offering high end engine swaps and custom fabrication.

This is for any Jeep ever made! We can put a diesel in anything. The price thats on this auction is only for 1998-06 TJ Jeep wranglers. There are extra costs if you want this swap done on another type of jeep. NOW YOU CAN GET 25 + MPG IN YOUR JEEP !!!!

It includes all parts and labor, you get a used 2005 Jeep Liberty diesel motor with less than 50,000 miles on it. This motor is a 4 cylinder common rail injected turbo diesel motor out of a 2005 Jeep Liberty. You can also choose an automatic or manual transmission. It includes all wiring and everything needed to get a diesel powered jeep 50 state legal!! YES IT WILL PASS INSPECTION IN EVERY STATE!!!! This is a factory functional and factory looking engine swap for your jeep. All the gauges and switches work, check engine light and OBD works.

It doesn't matter what motor or transmission is in your jeep now, because you will get a new motor and new rebuilt transmission. All automatic transmissions get fully rebuilt and a performance shift kit installed. We will re use your exsisting transfer case unless you want to upgrade.

There are many many options you can add to your swap, custom stainless exhaust, cam shafts and programmers, injectors and turbo upgrades, rear end upgrades, differential locker work anything you can imagine.

We are available to ship your jeep here and return it.

Call today if you have any questions or want to talk about it 910-515-4762

There wasn't a lot of info or pictures. I will try and contact the company for more details.

The number comes back to 'Performance Innovations' in Wilmington, NC

The ebay listing is at...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Diesel-Engine-conversion-TJ-YJ-CJ-25-MPG_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3a2 Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2e c0Q2em14QQhashZitem260322269819QQitemZ260322269819 QQptZOtherQ5fVehiclesQ5fEverythingQ5fElse

They list the price for the conversion at 10K for cost.

Also the phone number comes back to some other stuff if you google it.

I'll see if I can give the shop a call and invite them to this thread or find an e-mail address.

Have fun...don't give up.

[Jdemonto]

The price seems low for what you get, maybe its a scam.

Jason

[Mieser]

I don't know. I was able to find some posts from the same guy over on another board. I found an e-mail and invited him to the thread, we will see. It looks like he has done some hemi swaps in TJs and Prowlers.....

I still lust after a diesel LJ!

[Totenkopf]

Mieser, you ever get any info from that guy? Has he done the Diesel swap in a TJ before?

[Mieser]

I did contact him.

Seemed like a nice guy, but didn't want to share on the board. He mentioned doing a CRD swap at a previous shop he worked for but didn't say who it was. He used the liberty dash and computers and still couldn't get the cruise control to work ( ABS CAN-c signal if I remember right ).

[AEV Dave]

Wow. That seems sketchy at best. I looked into making mine a manual but it was a real pain because the trans is only available for export...The cals are not available here to program the PCM etc...sounds suspicious to me.

dh

[ryancrouch]

It would be nice if Jeep had decided to make the engine available like they had mentioned. After all isn't the wrangler one of, or the, most accessorized vehicle out?

[Totenkopf]

BurnsvilleOffroad says (on their site) that they do swaps using both the italian Diesel and the M-B Diesel in TJs and JKs.

[Totenkopf]

I did contact him.

Seemed like a nice guy, but didn't want to share on the board. He mentioned doing a CRD swap at a previous shop he worked for but didn't say who it was. He used the liberty dash and computers and still couldn't get the cruise control to work ( ABS CAN-c signal if I remember right ).
His price went up.

eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Diesel-Engine-conversion-TJ-YJ-CJ-25-MPG_W0QQitemZ220341208399QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomo tive_Services?hash=item220341208399&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

[ryancrouch]

Maybe it's just me, but does anyone think it's odd to be "auctioning" a swap on Ebay? I mean shouldn't there be fairly set prices that would only vary depending on which transmission, etc was selected? Wish GM and Chrysler would merge then bring this to the US http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/chevy/0706dp_2008_cadillac_cts_v6_diesel/index.html


Imagine 406 lbs-ft of torgue from a 2.9L.

[JeepinJon]

Maybe it's just me, but does anyone think it's odd to be "auctioning" a swap on Ebay? I mean shouldn't there be fairly set prices that would only vary depending on which transmission, etc was selected?

I would agree that it is odd, and that the price is about $15,000 less than Burnsville Off Road was advertising them for, and his Hemi swaps are about $9,000 less than AEV and other shops. I would be kind of suspicious. Also it seems suspicios that he keeps changing his name on e-bay so you can never see the feedback from other users.

[offroader613]

Well, Dan at Burnsville is in the spirit http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/Articles/LibertyDiesel.aspx

[Jdemonto]

Well, Dan at Burnsville is in the spirit http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/Articles/LibertyDiesel.aspx

Should be interesting, never saw the first one completed..Not sure if it ever sold?

Jason

[AEV Dave]

He's adding ABS to a TJ? Weird.

Squires is making a harness. I have no idea what transmission these guys are using, maybe I'll give Dan a ring and see what he has planned.

dh

[ryancrouch]

dave, thanks for the info on the squires harness. Do you by chance know how far along with it they are? And if you did yours again would you do the Rover setup on the front along with the Nth suspension? Just trying to get up ideas on budgetary overruns that I know will come.

[AEV Dave]

The Rover set up was perfect for me. At the time I wanted it to look as stock as possible to show off the Highline kit. My Jeep is RHD and there currently isn't an Nth kit to work with RHD because of the tracbars, which are really one of the major components of the Nth's fantastic handling.

dh

[butcher_block]

cool info
every day longer is a step closer to what i want to do

[ryancrouch]

Dave,
This is kinda off topic but I had a question on the red brute you have. I know you have said it's the most fun vehicle you have owned and was wondering would you have put the 2.8CRD motor in it if the swap would have been as (relatively) easy as the Hemi? And if so do you think it would have been as fun?

[Jdemonto]

Dave,
This is kinda off topic but I had a question on the red brute you have. I know you have said it's the most fun vehicle you have owned and was wondering would you have put the 2.8CRD motor in it if the swap would have been as (relatively) easy as the Hemi? And if so do you think it would have been as fun?

Being that Dave has experienced every possible combo in a jeep and said that the 5.7 was the most fun combo, I am really leaning twards a hemi conversion instead of the diesel

Jason

[joshuajmurray]

Anything new on this?

I have an 05 CRD that I mated to a toyota R150F trans via a dakota 3.9 bell. It's not in a jeep so I don't need any of the cluster/speedo stuff. I do need to figure out the immobilizer and auto to manual trans ECU code though.... :confused::D

[Jdemonto]

Anything new on this?

I have an 05 CRD that I mated to a toyota R150F trans via a dakota 3.9 bell. It's not in a jeep so I don't need any of the cluster/speedo stuff. I do need to figure out the immobilizer and auto to manual trans ECU code though.... :confused::D

What kind of trans is a R150F? Auto or stick?

Jason

[joshuajmurray]

What kind of trans is a R150F? Auto or stick?

Jason

That's a Toyota Tacoma manual trans.


On a side note the 2.8 CRD weighs 450lbs..
http://www.vmmotori.it/en/01/00/01/dettaglio.jsp?id=56

[Jdemonto]

That's a Toyota Tacoma manual trans.


On a side note the 2.8 CRD weighs 450lbs..
http://www.vmmotori.it/en/01/00/01/dettaglio.jsp?id=56

It seems that the easiest swap is a Cummins 4bt, however it also seems like you have to run a GM transmission if you want an auto. I would like to run the 5-4rfe with a Cummins 4bt. The wiring nitemare on the VM 2.8 is too complicated for a wrangler swap.

Jason

[joshuajmurray]

It seems that the easiest swap is a Cummins 4bt, however it also seems like you have to run a GM transmission if you want an auto. I would like to run the 5-4rfe with a Cummins 4bt. The wiring nitemare on the VM 2.8 is too complicated for a wrangler swap.

Jason

Nah, just need to work it out. I mean the 4bt is super simple which is nice but the CRD is a sweet motor IMHO.

In any case I was hoping to find a tuner that could turn off the immobilizer and reflash the ECU with manual trans code but the one place I've found that does reflash the ECU does not appear to know their way around the code. So I've contacted a friend that does ECU reprogramming to see if he'll do it. Barring that I guess I'll do myself.. :mad:

[joshuajmurray]

It seems that the easiest swap is a Cummins 4bt, however it also seems like you have to run a GM transmission if you want an auto. I would like to run the 5-4rfe with a Cummins 4bt. The wiring nitemare on the VM 2.8 is too complicated for a wrangler swap.

Jason

I don't know much about teh 5-4rfe but if it share the bellhousing mating pattern with a NV3550 this may get you where you're going: http://www.swiftmachine.com/id13.html

[Jdemonto]

I don't know much about teh 5-4rfe but if it share the bellhousing mating pattern with a NV3550 this may get you where you're going: http://www.swiftmachine.com/id13.html

I will only do a auto trans. The 5-4rfe seems to be the one that fits behind most dodge/chrysler/jeep applications. After seeing the cummins 4bt in Moab I have renewed hope of installing one into my jeep. I have a liberty 2.8 CRD and the mechanical side is easy, trying to adapt the tow different computer systems would just be a cash cow. Not that my jeep isn'y already a cash cow!

Jason

[Mieser]

I think InMotion is doing the most work with the CRD Liberty ECU right now if that helps.

[AEV Dave]

That link to the VM site is for the new Panther engine like used in the JK and J8. The one that was in the liberty is a different engine and is 528lbs.

dh

[joshuajmurray]

I think InMotion is doing the most work with the CRD Liberty ECU right now if that helps.

I wound up contracting the company that did the original programming for Chrysler on the CRD motors. They obviously have unlimited capability in terms of reprogramming. No immobilizer, no EGR, custom boost level per gear, etc..

InMotion was pretty disappointing to speak with. I would guess his "canned" tunes are fine but I don't think he has access to much besides the fuel maps... He was very evasive when I asked him questions about his tuning. I wasn't asking for trade secrets either, just basic stuff. I have tuned many ECUs myself and worked with quite a few companies on similar projects.. FWIW.

[joshuajmurray]

That link to the VM site is for the new Panther engine like used in the JK and J8. The one that was in the liberty is a different engine and is 528lbs.

dh

Thanks Dave, do you happen to have more info? :o

[butcher_block]

like maybe if i can ge a J8 crate into my dakota :)
after all there was a dakota R1 non CRD VM 2.8

[Mieser]

It looks like Burnsville was able to pull off a complete (?) swap.

http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/Articles/LibertyDiesel.aspx

http://www.burnsvilleoffroad.com/Images/Articles/LibertyDiesel/4WDP-100200-DSL-44-48.pdf

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/jeep/1002_4wd_2006_jeep_wrangler_tj_diesel/index.html

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/27283666+w750+st0/1002_4wd_03+2006_jeep_wrangler_tj_unlimited+engine _bay.jpg

From the article....

They used a complete wrecked liberty and installed the engine along with the liberty dash and steering column in order to get things to work. They also swapped in JK axles in order to get the ABS sensors they needed to make the Liberty computers happy. They did do a nice job, the steering column and cluster look pretty darn factory.

They did swap in a 6spd manual transmission too....or rather kept it from the original TJ platform. They also kept the 4:1 Rubicon Transfer case.

An RE lift was used to get front radius arms for Diesel motor mount clearance.

I like it a lot, but I would have done things a little different. I would have kept the stock 545 auto and np242 transfer case. This is mainly just personal preference

I would also like to see someone try and keep the stock TJ front upper arms by using a j-bend arm to clear the diesel motor mount. I'm just not a fan of the added weight and complexity of a long arm suspension. As long as the lift height is minimized the stock arms are fine.

Of course I would like to see an AEV highline kit. I don't think that it would make anything different....except allow less lift and bigger tires :)

The JK axles should work pretty well. I would like to see them adapted to the stock style TJ suspension. Also, by using the factory hutchinson/mopar beadlock wheels with full 6.X" backspacing you could get the width down to the same as TJ axles and AEV Pinters.....but have double beadlocks! I think the JK D44s front and back with factory electric lockers would be nice!

[Jdemonto]

Really for any of us this would be the only way to complete the swap so it actually works. I really like the 2.8 VM , not sure all the work and hassle are worth it in the end.

Jason

[Mieser]

I sent an e-mail off to Burnsville to get an idea on pricing. The only part of this swap that has ever scarred me is he wiring. I think the power train and axle swap would be pretty straight forward. I have to wonder if they are just using a modified Liberty harness more than a modified TJ harness, or if they are really blending them that much?

The cheapest CRD I could find today was just under 10K. The JK D44 axles have gone up a bit for off the shelf new units lately also. Finding a wrecked LJ with the need for front sheet metal shouldn't be that hard...

I'll update again when I hear from Burnsville Offroad. I'm interested to see how proud they are of the swap....

[Jdemonto]

I sent an e-mail off to Burnsville to get an idea on pricing. The only part of this swap that has ever scarred me is he wiring. I think the power train and axle swap would be pretty straight forward. I have to wonder if they are just using a modified Liberty harness more than a modified TJ harness, or if they are really blending them that much?

The cheapest CRD I could find today was just under 10K. The JK D44 axles have gone up a bit for off the shelf new units lately also. Finding a wrecked LJ with the need for front sheet metal shouldn't be that hard...

I'll update again when I hear from Burnsville Offroad. I'm interested to see how proud they are of the swap....

My guess..............Real proud!

My buddy passed away and the family is selling a CRD TJ Rubicon for $21k

Jason

[Mieser]

Is the one for sale the one Hotwire did?

[Jdemonto]

Is the one for sale the one Hotwire did?

Yes, he wanted $35K and has his condition worsened they dropped the price.

Jason

[Mieser]

I was able to find a Fourwheeler article about Burnsville swapping in the Jk axles in to the CRD swap jeep.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/drivetrain/129_0908_jeep_tj_jeep_jk_dana_44_axle_swap/index.html

There are some decent pictures of the engine from the bottom front area

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/Unlimited%20Project/129_0908_14_zjeep_tj_dana_44_axle_s.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/Unlimited%20Project/129_0908_15_zjeep_tj_dana_44_axle_s.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/Unlimited%20Project/129_0908_16_zjeep_tj_dana_44_axle_s.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/Unlimited%20Project/129_0908_17_zjeep_tj_dana_44_axle_s.jpg

[Mieser]

Since its the holidays I have a bit more time to think about the swap and do some more research.....

Notes, questions, ideas....

-Was there ever a CRD liberty in the USA that DIDN'T come with ABS? Or was ABS added no matter what? Looking at the factory CRD 2005 FSM I noticed that the BCM ( body control module ) is suppose to have the ability to produce the speed signal for the PCI bus. Here it is from the FSM manual.

Electronic Pinion Factor - On vehicles without
the optional Antilock Brake System (ABS) the
BCM provides a source voltage to the rear wheel
speed sensor and monitors a returned vehicle speed
signal input. The BCM is able to use the vehicle
speed signal input to accurately calculate vehicle
speed and distance information by applying an electronic
pinion factor. This factor is based upon either
a pre-programmed tire size or a Tire Revolutions per
Mile (TIRE REV/MILE) value that compensates for
multiple optional axle ratios and tire diameters. The
correct electronic pinion factor must be programmed
into the BCM using a diagnostic scan tool in order
for the vehicle speed and distance information to be
accurate. The BCM then transmits the correct vehicle
speed information over the PCI data bus for use
by the EMIC for control of the speedometer and
odometer.

I think that all CRD libertys came with ABS however. This speed signal is what allows the speedometer and odometer to work in the liberty, and I suspect that the speed signal message also allows the cruise control to function.

-ABS function and swapping into the TJ platform. Its not that I want ABS at all, some people don't mind it, but it tends to annoy me. To get the CRD to work properly in the TJ it looks like you might have to have it? The ABS computer in the CRD liberty provides the speed signal for the PCI network as far as I can tell. So in order to get everything to function like stock you would need the ABS computer? Or could you hook up the a single speed sensor to the BCM (and somehow turn on that function? ) with the dealer tool in order to have the needed speed signal without the need for the ABS parts in the CRD platform?

I do not know the best place to find the speed signal. Perhaps you could use the VSS signal from the TJ if you kepts its transfer case. The rate would need to be adjusted but that should be able to be corrected in the BCM?

I also found mention of ABS being an option on 2005 jeeps TJ's? I didn't know that TJs had this option? That would mean that at least some of the brackets and sensors should be available without having to resort to the full JK axle swap? I wonder if only the overseas wranglers came with ABS?

Ideally if you could get just one of the ABS sensors from a TJ you could use that signal to input into the BCM in order to output the needed speed signal without the need for the ABS computer OR the need for the JK axle swap?

-Liberty Steering column. Now, I think they are swapping this into the TJ in order to have the SKIM module for the liberty computers. Didn't the TJ come with a SKIM module too, couldn't you just use that one with the KJ key signal? I am sure something would have to be re-programed, but in theory it might be able to work?

It didn't look like the liberty steering column was that hard to install in the Burnsville pictures. Didn't the liberty have steering wheel controls for the radio too?

-Liberty gauge/dash swap It looks like Burnsville got it to swap in behind the factory TJ plastic cover. The upper corners are the wrong shape but they filled it with a black backdrop, maybe a sheet of aluminum or plastic cut to adapt the liberty dash to TJ dash?

Swapping the liberty dash allows you to have all the factory CRD speedometer, Tach, and indicators without having to have the AEV gateway module to produce or convert PCI signals for the TJ dash.



That's all for now....

[Jdemonto]

Yes some...very little of the TJ's ever had ABS you lost disk brakes to get them and they were pricey if I remember right. I am almost certain that 2005 liberty's did not have ABS. I have one and again I believe it does not have it. The burnsville swap looks ok but the end result is a hack imho. If you want a full factory functioning rig it will prove to be very difficult to pull off what Aev has done.

Jason

[Mieser]

I'm looking at a 2005 KJ FSM and a 2005 TJ FSM for reference.

Jason, is your liberty a diesel? ABS is easy to check. The ABS computer and unit is right under the brake master cylinder. The two lines from the master cylinder go directly into the ABS unit.

At least the ABS TJ parts should be out there if you can use them.

I think using one front ABS sensor on the TJ front axle would be pretty easy to retrofit. It looks like just the stub axle has a tone ring and the sensor bolts to one of the 3-bolts that hold the hub unit-bearing on. This ABS tone signal could tend be fed into the BCM from the CRD to get the speed signal needed. This way you don't have to swap in the JK axles OR the ABS computer and actuator. This way you could keep your TJ axles intact and most of the money you have in them. The only part that would need to be changed is ONE outer stub axle. All the big brake kits from AEV would still work then too? You also get to keep your TJ wheels.

As a note. The KJ ABS uses 3 sensor signals ( RF, LF, and rear diff ). The JK and TJ ABS use 4 sensor signals ( RF, LF, RR, LR ).

I don't think the Burnsville swap was that 'hack'. Was it as elegant as the AEV conversion...not even close. From what I can gather it is fully functioning however, which hasn't been done yet.

The JK axles are kinda the deal breaker for me. That's a good deal of extra work just to get some ABS signals. To me it looks like retrofitting the TJ axles is a much better bet. The front looks pretty easy, I wonder what would be the easiest way to get a rear signal?

[Mieser]

I did a little more digging into the FSM's of the KJ and TJ

-It looks like the BCM ( body control module ) is integrated in the junction block. While the BCM unbolts, there is no separate wiring harness to it. All the inputs and outputs of the BCM is integrated into the junction block. The junction block also functions as the interior fuse panel for the KJ. The location of the KJ junction block (LHD) is on the left hand side of the dash with an access panel between the door and dash.

On the TJ the fuse panel is fairly simple and is located behind the glove box.

I don't know how much room there is in the TJ, but the junction block would have to be located somewhere.

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/31472538+w750+st0/1002_4wd_09+2006_jeep_wrangler_tj_unlimited+wiring _harness.jpg

Here is some of the interior wiring on the burnsville swap. I think you can see the junction block just ahead of the seat. Its the big grey box on the floor. I don't know where they stashed it though? Maybe on the left side of the dash similar to the KJ is stock? The wiring lengths would work out pretty good for this. I would like to see it installed in the stock TJ location, that would be the most appropriate I think. A lot of wiring would have to be redone to do this.

As a side note. Looking at a lot of the connections to the BCM, it would seem that a great deal of wiring and circuits can be eliminated. I don't know the best way to deal with this. The circuits would have to be identified as open or closed and dealt with accordingly at the plugs to the Junction Block/BCM. This would be stuff like electric door locks, electric windows, rear hatch stuff, etc.

-Instrument Cluster.

Dave, where did you get this from?

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/Unlimited%20Project/_SLD7365.jpg

I think this is the cluster from a T1. It has all the stuff you need for the diesel. I haven't been able to find any part numbers for this at all. Anyone have a parts fische for the a T1?

So, the liberty cluster might be the best option for us mere mortals. The liberty instrument cluster does provide a compatible tach, speedo, wait to start light, etc.

http://image.4wdandsportutility.com/f/31472523+w750+st0/1002_4wd_04+2006_jeep_wrangler_tj_unlimited+gauge_ cluster.jpg

I think Burnsville did a pretty good job installing the KJ cluster and steering column in the TJ. It looks pretty stock. I would like to see the trim around the column though.

If the TJ column can have a SKIM module I don't know why you would need the KJ column. The radio controls could be nice....

[Jdemonto]

I'm looking at a 2005 KJ FSM and a 2005 TJ FSM for reference.

Jason, is your liberty a diesel? ABS is easy to check. The ABS computer and unit is right under the brake master cylinder. The two lines from the master cylinder go directly into the ABS unit.

At least the ABS TJ parts should be out there if you can use them.

I think using one front ABS sensor on the TJ front axle would be pretty easy to retrofit. It looks like just the stub axle has a tone ring and the sensor bolts to one of the 3-bolts that hold the hub unit-bearing on. This ABS tone signal could tend be fed into the BCM from the CRD to get the speed signal needed. This way you don't have to swap in the JK axles OR the ABS computer and actuator. This way you could keep your TJ axles intact and most of the money you have in them. The only part that would need to be changed is ONE outer stub axle. All the big brake kits from AEV would still work then too? You also get to keep your TJ wheels.

As a note. The KJ ABS uses 3 sensor signals ( RF, LF, and rear diff ). The JK and TJ ABS use 4 sensor signals ( RF, LF, RR, LR ).

I don't think the Burnsville swap was that 'hack'. Was it as elegant as the AEV conversion...not even close. From what I can gather it is fully functioning however, which hasn't been done yet.

The JK axles are kinda the deal breaker for me. That's a good deal of extra work just to get some ABS signals. To me it looks like retrofitting the TJ axles is a much better bet. The front looks pretty easy, I wonder what would be the easiest way to get a rear signal?

My next project will use JK axles because they are much stronger than TJ axles. Its not hard to adapt them to a TJ.

Jason

[Jdemonto]

Replying to your previous post Dave probably used a T1 cluster since the TJ was never made with a Diesel for Europe.

Jason

[Mieser]

I'm not against the JK axles, but it seems like they might not be needed for the CRD swap. The swap seems pretty straight forward but to have to swap axles just for the CRD conversion is a big step and additional cost.

I was able to find the parts fische for the 2005 KJ and they only list one part number for the BCM. This would mean that every BCM should (?) have the ability to generate the needed speed signal without the ABS computer and hardware. I don't think the TJ needs ABS? The option for the speed signal might need to be turned on/off in the BCM?

[AEV Dave]

I have no idea why they used the column, makes no sense and not nec. I was lucky enough to get a T1 cluster but no they aren't available. TJ SKIM is compatible with KJ, but you'll need to have a friend at a Chrysler dealership. The one good thing about the swap is that the KJ is J1850 and so is the TJ, however the VM2.8 is CAN, so the KJ has a gateway module to make everything talk, if I remember correctly (and its going on nearly 5 years) you'll need that which I think is the BCM in the KJ, and you'll need the ABS module to get a speedometer. You'll need to figure out a way to get the ABS module happy without all the equipt but that shouldn't be too hard. The only thing you should need is a XJ front axle and knuckle to get a ABS signal or better yet an XJ axle shaft and our new Big Brake kit :)

I've been told that a lot of BOR stuff involves swapping everything from the donor over which is one way to do it, but not very clean.

dh

[Mieser]

Dave, Thank you for your input! You should just loan me your CRD unlimited indefinitely since your so busy with everything else.....

From earlier in the thread. The CAN to J1850 gateway is in the Front Control Module on the KJ.

The BCM is suppose to have the ability to generate the speed signal in absence/omission of the ABS computer according to the FSM I was reading. I think this would only require one ABS type sensor. The KJ factory signal for non ABS versions is on the rear diff as a tone ring.

Dave, Do you know if the J1850 messages that drive the KJ gauge cluster would be compatible with the TJ Cluster? IE a tach signal is a tach signal, or a speedometer signal is a speedometer signal? I guess one way to test this would be to plug and power a TJ gauge cluster into the diagnostic port of the KJ? That could be fun.

[Jdemonto]

Dave, Thank you for your input! You should just loan me your CRD unlimited indefinitely since your so busy with everything else.....

From earlier in the thread. The CAN to J1850 gateway is in the Front Control Module on the KJ.

The BCM is suppose to have the ability to generate the speed signal in absence/omission of the ABS computer according to the FSM I was reading. I think this would only require one ABS type sensor. The KJ factory signal for non ABS versions is on the rear diff as a tone ring.

Dave, Do you know if the J1850 messages that drive the KJ gauge cluster would be compatible with the TJ Cluster? IE a tach signal is a tach signal, or a speedometer signal is a speedometer signal? I guess one way to test this would be to plug and power a TJ gauge cluster into the diagnostic port of the KJ? That could be fun.

Every time I see this thread it makes me want to do the swap and everytime I really think about it the reality sets in with the cost and potential bugs you would have to over come to make all this work right. I then start leaning towards a 4bt swap because its so darn simple and cheap opposed to the KJ Crd swap.

Jason

[Mieser]

If you want a simple mechanical swap look into the International Sprint 4.07. 2.8L 4cyl, mechanical injection, pass side turbo, GM 90 degree bolt pattern on the back of the engine. They can make 200+ hp. The only downside is that you have to find one to import from South America. I looked into it heavily, its not impossible, but not cheap. Its the same weight at the 4.0 I6. It would be a great swap if you didn't mind working through some of the stuff like cruise control and fooling the jeep computer into working the gauges. PM me for more info if you need it.

Its just not the same as a factory CRD jeep KJ/TJ swap where everything from engine diagnostics to cruise control will work just like stock with stock reliability and engineering.

[Mieser]

Is $4900 for a rolled CRD KJ donor a good deal? Cooling package may be damaged.

[Jdemonto]

Is $4900 for a rolled CRD KJ donor a good deal? Cooling package may be damaged.

I would think if its still runs its got to be worth at least $7-8K

So $4900 is a steal

Jason

[Mieser]

I am still waiting on more info. The cooling package looks a little moshed so I don't know if you could start the motor as is? The airbags also deployed, so I don't know what that does for starting. Its close enough that it might be worth the drive up to see it. I need to look up the price of the cooling package also. That is going to factor into everything.

[Jdemonto]

I am still waiting on more info. The cooling package looks a little moshed so I don't know if you could start the motor as is? The airbags also deployed, so I don't know what that does for starting. Its close enough that it might be worth the drive up to see it. I need to look up the price of the cooling package also. That is going to factor into everything.

Cooling as in Fans and Radiator?

Jason

[Mieser]

Yup, Radiator, intercooler, condensor, and fans.

[Jdemonto]

Yup, Radiator, intercooler, condensor, and fans.

Thats not all that hard to source if thats all thats wrong. You certainly want to make sure that the Jeep runs!

Jason

[Mieser]

Rough prices I found...

-345 radiator
-665 intercooler
-72 fan
-18 shroud
-277 condensor

Doesn't the CRD have an electric fan too?

[Jdemonto]

Rough prices I found...

-345 radiator
-665 intercooler
-72 fan
-18 shroud
-277 condensor

Doesn't the CRD have an electric fan too?

Yes electric with a regular Fan

Jason

[podunc]

I think that all CRD libertys came with ABS however. This speed signal is what allows the speedometer and odometer to work in the liberty, and I suspect that the speed signal message also allows the cruise control to function.

-ABS function and swapping into the TJ platform. Its not that I want ABS at all, some people don't mind it, but it tends to annoy me. To get the CRD to work properly in the TJ it looks like you might have to have it? The ABS computer in the CRD liberty provides the speed signal for the PCI network as far as I can tell. So in order to get everything to function like stock you would need the ABS computer? Or could you hook up the a single speed sensor to the BCM (and somehow turn on that function? ) with the dealer tool in order to have the needed speed signal without the need for the ABS parts in the CRD platform?

I do not know the best place to find the speed signal. Perhaps you could use the VSS signal from the TJ if you kepts its transfer case. The rate would need to be adjusted but that should be able to be corrected in the BCM?

I also found mention of ABS being an option on 2005 jeeps TJ's? I didn't know that TJs had this option? That would mean that at least some of the brackets and sensors should be available without having to resort to the full JK axle swap? I wonder if only the overseas wranglers came with ABS?

Ideally if you could get just one of the ABS sensors from a TJ you could use that signal to input into the BCM in order to output the needed speed signal without the need for the ABS computer OR the need for the JK axle swap?

-Liberty Steering column. Now, I think they are swapping this into the TJ in order to have the SKIM module for the liberty computers. Didn't the TJ come with a SKIM module too, couldn't you just use that one with the KJ key signal? I am sure something would have to be re-programed, but in theory it might be able to work?

It didn't look like the liberty steering column was that hard to install in the Burnsville pictures. Didn't the liberty have steering wheel controls for the radio too?



Could you not just install an inline SPST switch to disconnect the ABS signal from the computer when offroad. When driving on the road you could turn the switch on which would reestablish the ABS signal to the PCI. Surely the PCI would kick a code or two and most likely you would get the ABS light from the Liberty instrument cluster, but who cares when your off road. Plus you get ABS while on the road, a bonus for some.

As for the steering column 4 Wheel Drive and Sport Utility stated, "That way, the sentry key that was originally with the Liberty
crossed over to the Unlimited enabling all of the VIN protected modules from the diesel donor to be retained."

I don't know if this is necessary as Dave mentioned before, but as you ask did the TJ come with a SKIM module, maybe Dave can answer that question.

I too have been wanting to perform the conversion, but I patiently wait on the sidelines scouring over forums, tech articles, and emails for some better way than what's currently out there.

So my question is, if the stock TJ axles are retained, the PCI only needs one speed signal in theory to function correctly or does it need four signals?

Earlier I think Dave mentioned that one spindle need be changed over to facilitate a tone ring, hinting at just one speed signal being sent out, or recieved by the PCI, however you look at it.

[Jdemonto]

Looks like there is a Crd tuner working on a CRD swap.

http://jptrails.com/archives/733

[podunc]

Ooooi! It seems as if we are so close to having a diesel kit install. How cool would it be to just slap on the wiring harness to the 2.8L put an adapter plate onto your existing stock transmission, and then wheel the piss out of your new ride?

Oh, then spend $1.00 per gallon of diesel if you make your own home brew, all the while getting 20 to 25 miles per gallon (possibly more).

Hope this becomes reality!

[Jdemonto]

Ooooi! It seems as if we are so close to having a diesel kit install. How cool would it be to just slap on the wiring harness to the 2.8L put an adapter plate onto your existing stock transmission, and then wheel the piss out of your new ride?

Oh, then spend $1.00 per gallon of diesel if you make your own home brew, all the while getting 20 to 25 miles per gallon (possibly more).

Hope this becomes reality!

It will, cost may be quite a bit although I have not asked. The big challenge appears to be the difference of the dollar Vs Euro which can add 40% more to the price of parts etc. Also not sure if this is any Jeep or JK specific?

Jason

[podunc]

I just sent Green Diesel Engineering an email asking if they could give some insight to what was coming. Hopefully they will respond, and let us know what their plans are.

I will follow up with their response as soon as I get it.:D

[Jdemonto]

I just sent Green Diesel Engineering an email asking if they could give some insight to what was coming. Hopefully they will respond, and let us know what their plans are.

I will follow up with their response as soon as I get it.:D

The owner Keith seems very receptive and will respond promptly.

Jason

[podunc]

Jason your right. I sent them an email yesterday, and within 12 hours I recieved a response. Here is GDE's reply to my email. Looks like we will have to wait for an emissions legal kit, but at least their working on it. GDE has the right approach, and they as you say, "very receptive," to the customer base, which is a great thing.

"Thanks for your inquiry; I appreciate your interest in all things diesel. Your request for a 50-state (Tier 2, BIN 5) emission legal diesel powertrain swap kit is a long term goal of GDE. Unfortunately, the first application we are trying to import will be for “off-road” competitive use only. The engine must be used in a non licensed vehicle that is registered with a sanctioned racing organization (W.E.ROCK, XRRA, SCORE, Dakar , etc.). These first engines will be marketed to hardcore off-roaders that want the diesel low-end torque, engine braking and precise throttle control for rock crawling. The objective is to build awareness for the diesel capabilities at a grass roots level. We are still working on finalizing the final build spec of the engine, but it will be based on the next generation VM 2.8l engine. The price is not set yet, but a kit including: engine, wire harness, engine controller and calibration could be between $10,000 and $15,000 depending on which transmission is used. This would not include the cost of tranny, cooling pack, exhaust, etc. A conversion is very expensive and not appealing to the masses.

To actually have an emission legal kit, we need some massive investment, which does not exist at the present time. The diesel powertrain would need a urea injection system in the exhaust to lower the NOx emissions, this requires a new engine ECU from Bosch or another stand alone ECU to manage the after treatment. A diesel particulate filter would also be a must. An endeavor of this kind will cost ~5-10 million to sell on a small scale, under 5,000 units per year.

What’s left of the Big 3 does not seem to want to invest in diesel for the US market. I think they do not talk with people on the street or see the marketing potential if done right. The Jeep Wrangler, Liberty and Chrysler minivan diesels could all be on US soil in less than two years if Chrysler wanted to be innovative, take a risk and sell up to 100,000 diesels per year. I am not confident they want to make a profit.

As GDE grows, we will be offering other products to the diesel community and a hope to broaden the use of clean diesel in the US . If there is anything else I can do or answer, just let me know. AEV’s J8 is a good starting point and a very solid product. I will start checking out their forum."

Thanks,
Keith
GDE Calibrator

[Jdemonto]

Very nice detailed response, I will end up buying thier computer tune for my CRD libery.

Jason

[JeepinJon]

I live in a state that doesn't care about emmisions, so I could drive the "off road" version on the highway and be legal.:D

[podunc]

Florida does not require any emissions test either. The only stipulation is that the vehicle cannot smoke for any longer than 4 to 5 seconds, then the police can give you a ticket.

[Kelboski]

I talk to Keith from GDE quite a bit, and he is GREAT with customer service.

I have the CRD in my JK, and as far as emmisions go, mine is registered in Atlanta, Ga as a diesel and by being such it is exempt. I asked before I bought it, and I just had to take it to one of the 2 emmisions service centers in ATL and show to them it was a diesel. Done.....



Kelbo

[Meeper]

I talk to Keith from GDE quite a bit, and he is GREAT with customer service.

I have the CRD in my JK, and as far as emmisions go, mine is registered in Atlanta, Ga as a diesel and by being such it is exempt. I asked before I bought it, and I just had to take it to one of the 2 emmisions service centers in ATL and show to them it was a diesel. Done.....



Kelbo

how did you order the CRD in the states?

[JeepinJon]

how did you order the CRD in the states?

He bought one that one the the Burnsville Offroad employees built and converted for himself.

[Kelboski]

He bought one that one the the Burnsville Offroad employees built and converted for himself.

Correct.


Kelbo

[Meeper]

Ahh ok .

[podunc]

Correct.


Kelbo

So how did your install go?

Let's see some pics! Very anxious to know how it went.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did your conversion cost? I can't wait to do the swap as well.

Did you sell your 3.8L?

[Jdemonto]

So how did your install go?

Let's see some pics! Very anxious to know how it went.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did your conversion cost? I can't wait to do the swap as well.

Did you sell your 3.8L?

The Jeep that Kelbo bought was on Ebay for a while so the conversion was already done.

Jason

[podunc]

Thanks Jdemonto. Although it would still be nice to see the finished product!

[Jdemonto]

Thanks Jdemonto. Although it would still be nice to see the finished product!

It seems as if all the parts for the conversion exist in Europe. The only problem is getting them here at a reasonable cost. The dollar is week so the price would be substantial.

Jason

[Kelboski]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/kelly201.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/Jeep4.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/PC190011.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/PC190025_01-1.jpg







Kelbo

[Kelboski]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/Jeep5.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/Jeep6.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/photo11.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/PC190035.jpg

[Kelboski]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/Jeep7.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f231/Kelboski/Jeep3.jpg

[podunc]

Really nice looking Jeep Kelboski, thanks for letting us see it. That was a great find!

It stinks that the parts are so readily available overseas. Its too bad that I couldn't stay in Italy for an extra year. I would have been able to do the conversion over there, then export the Jeep back home on the governments dime!

As a side note, it looks a little tight in the engine compartment for the CRD. No doubt it fits; but, in the TJ pics I have seen, it seems that there is a little more room.

The 3.8L seems to take up less room in length, but not width.

[1999 TJ]

I Have Started The Process. The Engine Is Being Shipped From London.
Complete. So Any Info On How Exactly To Do it.
Please Post Email Call. What Ever. I Want This Done Right And FAst As It Can Be.
Thank You.:)

Also I HAve An Off road PArk Tht The Blue Mt Jeep Alliance Loves In North Eastern Pa if Any One is Looking For A Place to Run

www.fenoffsbluemtclub.com

[Rus]

I Have Started The Process. The Engine Is Being Shipped From London.
Complete. So Any Info On How Exactly To Do it.
Please Post Email Call. What Ever. I Want This Done Right And FAst As It Can Be.
Thank You.:)

Also I HAve An Off road PArk Tht The Blue Mt Jeep Alliance Loves In North Eastern Pa if Any One is Looking For A Place to Run

www.fenoffsbluemtclub.com
Awesome, I would also be interesed in a parts list and some more info.

What else are you getting besides the engine? Computer, wiring, exhaust, rad, airbox?

[1999 TJ]

I Am Getting Every Thing From the Bell Housing out To The RAd. Including the Engine Mounts, And Exuast MAnifold. A Am Gona See What The HArness Would Cost Be For they Ship.
Going Custum Exaust From Manifold Out Though.

The Engines Out of A Liberty. i Did Not think The Computer Would Be Useful. Should I Get it?
Thanks:confused:

[Jdemonto]

I Am Getting Every Thing From the Bell Housing out To The RAd. Including the Engine Mounts, And Exuast MAnifold. A Am Gona See What The HArness Would Cost Be For they Ship.
Going Custum Exaust From Manifold Out Though.

The Engines Out of A Liberty. i Did Not think The Computer Would Be Useful. Should I Get it?
Thanks:confused:

Yes you may need it

[podunc]

Yes you may need it

X2 on the computer. I haven't seen one install that doesn't have the computer with it.

1999 TJ you have probably read this whole thread, but I would check with AEV Dave to see what is essential to retain. Also, a call to Burnsville Offroad or Green Diesel Engineering might lend itself useful.

Keep us posted on how everything goes. It would be great to see the "in's and out's" of such an install.

Good luck.

[1999 TJ]

Ok Should Have Run It ByHer But I Always Jump Before Looking.
We Need Our Jeep The Second Car in A Two Car Family Running FAster Then A Conversion Will Go.

So I Know Have A 2004 Jeep CRD Engine From Bell Housing Out To rad Including Engine mounts ( Minus The Altanator)
For Sale.
Just Asking What I Paid. $3,500.00 Also throwing In A ^ Speed Stick Trans i bought To Go With the Conversion.
Trans HAd 37K
Engine HAd 54K ( A Baby In Diesel Miles)
Any One that Wants It Let me Know. it HAs NotShipped Yet. i'll HAve itSent To your Closest Frieght Station.

[johnalphen]

I am not able understand what you exactly want to say.It would be great if you can give some brief explanation about what you are speaking about?

[portal-brute]

Will a J8 CRD work in a TJ, or will only the T1 fit with relative ease? Picked up a frame and tub and am figuring out my drivetrain budget for my future brute build. Or can I get the ECM and harness to a Liberty CRD modified for simplicity, and oil pan to better clear a 3 or stock style 4 link?

Would prefer a CRD for size and weight and longer tank ranges. I want to see how far back it will push the ATI bolt on portals I plan on adapting to my 9" housings regarding picking up engine and adapting from J8 or KJ VS. shipping a T1 motor.

Edit: I would prefer a used engine to keep costs down

Thank you.


Also, if anyone knows which AEV dealers supply CRD engines, it would be greatly appreciated.:cool:

[portal-brute]

To the top. Anymore or new info available for this swap this swap?

[xtrmtj]

Man someone needs to make a diesel swap kit for a tj! I'd be very interested.

[Mieser]

yeah, your telling me!

[Jdemonto]

May not be the conversion you all dreamed about...works for me

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/TDI-YJ-AX5.htm

See them at Sema 2010 in the Omix-Ada Rugged ridge booth

Jason

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/images/jeep/collage.jpg

[xtrmtj]

Holy cow... If they do bring the tj version out, that'd be freaking awesome.

[Jdemonto]

Holy cow... If they do bring the tj version out, that'd be freaking awesome.

The YJ frame and the TJ frame are the same width no reason why this would not work in a TJ.

Jason

[xtrmtj]

The YJ frame and the TJ frame are the same width no reason why this would not work in a TJ.

Jason

Says tj conversion coming soon. But I just researched a little on the 1.9 tdi. Produces 100hp and 180 or so torque. Doesn't seem like enough. Especially for my brute. Hhmmm they say you can mod them to be close to 200hp, but then how reliable is it? And expensive?

[Jdemonto]

Says tj conversion coming soon. But I just researched a little on the 1.9 tdi. Produces 100hp and 180 or so torque. Doesn't seem like enough. Especially for my brute. Hhmmm they say you can mod them to be close to 200hp, but then how reliable is it? And expensive?

90HP 178ft tq Stock

Inter-cool

120HP 278ft tq

Bigger injectors? Bigger Turbo? Tune?

Jason

[xtrmtj]

90HP 178ft tq Stock

Inter-cool

120HP 278ft tq

Bigger injectors? Bigger Turbo? Tune?

Jason

Interesting... Wonder how reliable with performance upgrades?

[Jdemonto]

Interesting... Wonder how reliable with performance upgrades?

Very as long as the block stay's stock. You can also mechanically inject the motor and do away with the electronics.

http://www.mtdiinjectorpump.com/

Jason

[xtrmtj]

Very as long as the block stay's stock. You can also mechanically inject the motor and do away with the electronics.

http://www.mtdiinjectorpump.com/

Jason

Well, since everyone on facebook :-) I asked a couple of questions. They said call their sales team after nov. 6th. They should have the details for the tj kit.

I'm still curious if jeeps going to release their 2.8l swap kit? That's been on the table now for 2 years.

[Jdemonto]

Well, since everyone on facebook :-) I asked a couple of questions. They said call their sales team after nov. 6th. They should have the details for the tj kit.

I'm still curious if jeeps going to release their 2.8l swap kit? That's been on the table now for 2 years.

It was off the table just as fast as it went on the table;)

Apparently they had a huge supply of the 2.8 Vm's and they found a buyer so no swap kit:(

Jason

[Nikson]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned any conversions with a Toyota engine.

The 1KZ is available with mechanic pump, and is one of the most reliable diesels out there up to this point (per reviews from overlanders & jeepers from Europe).

as far as I've been informed, there is no electronics to worry about, since engine is more or less wire-free.

I've been considering to ship my LJ to Russia, where conversion could be done for about $5-6000 as I am been told by local experts.

Shipping charge could vary depending on how you do it, but since I plan a EuroAsia expedition in a year or so, shipping charge would be not a biggie...

[MoparNorm]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned any conversions with a Toyota engine.

The 1KZ is available with mechanic pump, and is one of the most reliable diesels out there up to this point (per reviews from overlanders & jeepers from Europe).

as far as I've been informed, there is no electronics to worry about, since engine is more or less wire-free.

I've been considering to ship my LJ to Russia, where conversion could be done for about $5-6000 as I am been told by local experts.

Shipping charge could vary depending on how you do it, but since I plan a EuroAsia expedition in a year or so, shipping charge would be not a biggie...

You'd never get it smogged in the US..:(

[MoparNorm]

It was off the table just as fast as it went on the table;)

Apparently they had a huge supply of the 2.8 Vm's and they found a buyer so no swap kit:(

Jason

Is that what is hindering, or stalling the J8 kits... ???
Or did sales of European Wranglers with VM's increase?
FYI, Fiat just purchased Penske's 50% share of VM, so the future is bright!

[Nikson]

You'd never get it smogged in the US..:(

Well, I am not sure anyone would know any difference as far as what you have under the hood.

Where I live, there is no smog test.

As far as I am aware, with proper setup of exhaust system, it should run good enough not to be hurtful to surroundings.

shipping will cost a bit to bring the engine into US, but its doable.

[MoparNorm]

Well, I am not sure anyone would know any difference as far as what you have under the hood.

Where I live, there is no smog test.

As far as I am aware, with proper setup of exhaust system, it should run good enough not to be hurtful to surroundings.

shipping will cost a bit to bring the engine into US, but its doable.

Consider yourself, temporarily lucky.
You are correct, that properly setup, it will not be harmful, however...

Last year, the State of CA and the US EPA reached an agreement to eliminate the differences between CA and the 49 states by adopting CA regulations for all 50 states. So, by default it is illegal and depending upon when, or if, your state adopts CA testing requirements, it will eventually be tested and/or regulated.
Just be vigilant and don't let your state become another CA.

[Jdemonto]

Is that what is hindering, or stalling the J8 kits... ???
Or did sales of European Wranglers with VM's increase?
FYI, Fiat just purchased Penske's 50% share of VM, so the future is bright!

No this was like 2 years ago.....


Jason

[Jdemonto]

Consider yourself, temporarily lucky.
You are correct, that properly setup, it will not be harmful, however...

Last year, the State of CA and the US EPA reached an agreement to eliminate the differences between CA and the 49 states by adopting CA regulations for all 50 states. So, by default it is illegal and depending upon when, or if, your state adopts CA testing requirements, it will eventually be tested and/or regulated.
Just be vigilant and don't let your state become another CA.

We can't let that happen!

Jason

[MoparNorm]

No this was like 2 years ago.....


Jason

Haven't we been waiting for J8 for two years? :D

[Jdemonto]

Haven't we been waiting for J8 for two years? :D

I wish.....


Jason

[KSM]

what does everyone think of the HPA 1.9 TDI conversion? If there numbers are close it doesnt seem that bad, 25-30 MPG, 165 hp, 260-280 ft/lbs. Cost is outrageous but what do you guys think from a technical perspective? I dont know anything about the engine but most people seem to rave over it.

This conversion and a genright tank (31.5 gallons) could give an LJ an incredible range.

[Nikson]

what does everyone think of the HPA 1.9 TDI conversion? If there numbers are close it doesnt seem that bad, 25-30 MPG, 165 hp, 260-280 ft/lbs. Cost is outrageous but what do you guys think from a technical perspective? I dont know anything about the engine but most people seem to rave over it.

This conversion and a genright tank (31.5 gallons) could give an LJ an incredible range.

it would definitely be an improvement as far as torque & mpg efficiency vs petrol type engine. from my end, as far as friend mechanics that dealt w/VW engines dont have much of bad to say. diesels are mainly considered more reliable than fuel engines... mostly...

[MoparNorm]

what does everyone think of the HPA 1.9 TDI conversion? If there numbers are close it doesnt seem that bad, 25-30 MPG, 165 hp, 260-280 ft/lbs. Cost is outrageous but what do you guys think from a technical perspective? I dont know anything about the engine but most people seem to rave over it.

This conversion and a GenRight tank (31.5 gallons) could give an LJ an incredible range.

It depends upon how much your rig weighs. 1.9 is pretty small.
Consider this for comparison, VM has a new 3.0 that weights the same or less than the 2.8 VM, has 406 lb ft of torque and gets a combined fuel mileage (average of both city and highway) of 8.3 L/100km, or 28.3 mpg, in the Grand Cherokee. That or a 2.8 would be a screaming Jeep motor. Additionally, VM motors are engineered well beyond what VW and Mercedes has provided. I know little about the VW diesel, but the Merc diesel is basically a 150,000 mile "throwaway" engine, while the VM has serviceable and rebuildable sleeves and bearings that are good initially for 250,000 miles. Also and most importantly, the VM bolts directly to at least two Jeep transmissions, making any conversion that much easier to install and mate to trans and transfer case.

[KSM]

If the VW is like the mercedes in that is is a throwaway engine...this would not be good for a jeep. A major aspect of owning a diesel is the longevity. I plan on having my LJ for a long time in that i love the 2dr long wheelbase (unless i can get my hands on a 3dr J8)

I agree that the VM 3.0 would be preferable but there isnt a kit for a conversion. The 1.9 seems to be the only one available. Not sure how they are getting through the computer headaches though. I also wonder if you can squeeze some more mpgs our of that engine with proper tires and gears. It looks as though they are getting their numbers from a yj conversion with 35s. May be worse when you put the engine in the larger TJ/LJ.

[MoparNorm]

There are 11,500, 2.8 VM's installed in the Jeep Liberty. A few have started showing up in salvage yards, that would be my choice...

[CRDSTU]

There are 11,500, 2.8 VM's installed in the Jeep Liberty. A few have started showing up in salvage yards, that would be my choice...

Is that just in the States MoparNorm?

[MarkLC]

what does everyone think of the HPA 1.9 TDI conversion? If there numbers are close it doesnt seem that bad, 25-30 MPG, 165 hp, 260-280 ft/lbs. Cost is outrageous but what do you guys think from a technical perspective? I dont know anything about the engine but most people seem to rave over it.

This conversion and a genright tank (31.5 gallons) could give an LJ an incredible range.

I will be able to answer some of your questions on the HPA 1.9 TDI later this summer, have a conversion package on order ... to be installed in a 86 CJ.
Also have a roll-over liberty diesel, thinking of using in a future Brute conversion.

[Jdemonto]

I do know that the tdi motor will go to 300,000 miles......I am a fan of the hpa conversion. Its not expensive based on what hemis cost to install.

JASON

[Mieser]

This idea has resurfaced in my brain after some recent events at EJS....

I think that the combination of the 2.8CRD from the liberty in a TJ/LJ is going to be the only way to get a diesel engine in a solid axle jeep universal for about the next 2-3 years.

For me, a big downside to the Euro V and upcoming Euro VI engine is the inability to run on south of the border higher sulfur fuel. They require good quality ULSD fuel.

The J8 is a solution since it uses the older generation engine and has the additional upgraded seals to deal with alternative fuels for the military. The J8 program is still in the wings.......but........

So, back to the top.....

We know this swap is possible, I think that it just needs to be simplified, well documented, and supported in the after-market.....

Anyone have a diesel Liberty and a star-scan tool? I am wondering if the body control module from the Liberty has a setting in the dealer software for 'non-abs'. In the FSM it mentions that the BCM can generate a speed signal from the rear axle tone wheel alone ( without the ABS computer ). I think this would be pretty key for the swap.

Anyone?

[Jdemonto]

This idea has resurfaced in my brain after some recent events at EJS....

I think that the combination of the 2.8CRD from the liberty in a TJ/LJ is going to be the only way to get a diesel engine in a solid axle jeep universal for about the next 2-3 years.

For me, a big downside to the Euro V and upcoming Euro VI engine is the inability to run on south of the border higher sulfur fuel. They require good quality ULSD fuel.

The J8 is a solution since it uses the older generation engine and has the additional upgraded seals to deal with alternative fuels for the military. The J8 program is still in the wings.......but........

So, back to the top.....

We know this swap is possible, I think that it just needs to be simplified, well documented, and supported in the after-market.....

Anyone have a diesel Liberty and a star-scan tool? I am wondering if the body control module from the Liberty has a setting in the dealer software for 'non-abs'. In the FSM it mentions that the BCM can generate a speed signal from the rear axle tone wheel alone ( without the ABS computer ). I think this would be pretty key for the swap.

Anyone?

Yes its possible just need a aftermarket company willing to use the resources to bring it to market. It would the easiest with a stick but thats my issue I need an auto. My friend built one of these it still had some issues and he passed away. I'm not sure if they ever sold the Jeep, I do know that squire made a wiring kit for it just was not 100% complete.

http://www.hotwireauto.com/gallery2/v/proj_tj_diesel/

Jason

[Mieser]

I talked with hotwire at the EJS vendors show about the diesel. They still have some issues with the swap. I talked with them about some ideas I had about how to solve the problems. Hopefully its a push in the right direction.

[Mieser]

I had another thought....

If the Body Control Module can provide a non-ABS speed signal I wonder if the tone ring on the rear of a later model TJ tranfer case would work? I don't think the NP242 out of the liberty had a provision for this, but I think all the later TJ cases did....as well as some of the XJ np242 cases? I think something could be found to work.

[Jdemonto]

I had another thought....

If the Body Control Module can provide a non-ABS speed signal I wonder if the tone ring on the rear of a later model TJ tranfer case would work? I don't think the NP242 out of the liberty had a provision for this, but I think all the later TJ cases did....as well as some of the XJ np242 cases? I think something could be found to work.

I don't recall seeing any tone rings on my Tcase NP231

Jason

[Mieser]

It's basically the speedometer sensor/sender

On the 2003+ TJs it's a tone ring if I remember right, the speedometer is adjusted in the gauge cluster programming. On the older TJs it was the worm gear to eletronic sending unit. You could adjust this with different 'color' gears ( different teeth counts ).

It would be a little more crude, but if you had a fixed output yoke you could build a tone ring and sensor mount into the rear output of the t-case.

You can see the sensor for the tone ring in this SYE kit. This was the 2003+ style I think?

http://www.jbconversions.com/images/products/sye/231j-ss-leadin.jpg

[Jdemonto]

It's basically the speedometer sensor/sender

On the 2003+ TJs it's a tone ring if I remember right, the speedometer is adjusted in the gauge cluster programming. On the older TJs it was the worm gear to eletronic sending unit. You could adjust this with different 'color' gears ( different teeth counts ).

It would be a little more crude, but if you had a fixed output yoke you could build a tone ring and sensor mount into the rear output of the t-case.

You can see the sensor for the tone ring in this SYE kit. This was the 2003+ style I think?

http://www.jbconversions.com/images/products/sye/231j-ss-leadin.jpg

The NP231 03-06 has a gear inside, the Rubicons have no gear just a sensor.

Jason

[Meeper]

The NP231 03-06 has a gear inside, the Rubicons have no gear just a sensor.

Jason

correct only the 241 Rubicon TJ models have the tone rings no gears...

[Mieser]

The geared speedometer system still generates a tone signal right? There is no mechanical connection like a cable. If you can use the SYE kit and plug it into the chassis harness the idea should still work. The speedo gears might allow you to tune the signal too?

[Jdemonto]

The geared speedometer system still generates a tone signal right? There is no mechanical connection like a cable. If you can use the SYE kit and plug it into the chassis harness the idea should still work. The speedo gears might allow you to tune the signal too?

This is interesting, but what does a SYE kit have to do with this? That just eliminates the CV to a U joint. The sensor is there regardless.....

Jason

[Mieser]

That is what I am saying....

Use this tone signal ( probably slightly modified ) to generate the speed signal with Liberty body control module ( functioning in the NON-abs setting like mentioned in the Liberty FSM ) This would eliminate the need to swap in the ABS computer, JK axles, or ABS axle parts into the TJ/LJ in order to get the CRD swap to totally function.

This would be the last part of the puzzle for the CRD swap. The speed signal from the BCM would replace the ABS speed signal, this would give you a working speedometer and cruise control with the Liberty gauge cluster.

Adding a tone ring to the rear diff could also work. I don't know if there was something like a TJ D44 rear axle with tone ring on the ring gear?