JK Suspension Testing photos [Archive] - American Expedition Vehicles

AEV Dave

08-14-2008, 07:34 PM

Thought some of you might like to see some of the behind the scenes shots of shock and geometry tuning we were up to this spring and summer before we released the JK suspension. We really focused on the best all around suspension for a vehicle that sees use beyond rock crawling, this involved trailer towing with the vehicle full of people and gear, high speed stability, ride comfort, and durability. This is the suspension you want if you're into exploring and using your vehicle for real world tasks.

This is a "one bump" event we hit to evaluate full travel events at speed, this helps significantly with certain aspects of shock tuning, but also makes things like bump steer and rear axle steer immediately apparent.

370

Here are some shot of testing bumpstops and hard landings. This is kind of fun at first, but after a while isn't so much fun anymore.

372
373

This is the 300 foot skidpad, Jim can wear a set of brand new BFGs down in about 4 hours out here. We've really put an emphasis on safety and roll stability with no bad habbits on this suspension, but its testing like this that verifies the math. Notice how "flat" the vehicle is behaving, You can really "see" the G's if you look close at the tires on the Jeep.

374

Here is Jim in the 700ft slalom...I was watching a stock vehicle go through this at the Jeep specified maximum target speed of 58mph, the inside front tire was lifting a couple inches off the ground. These photos were taken at between 58 and 60mph (on 35s!) without lifting a tire. The beauty of this is that articulation is not affected at all. Again, if you look close, you can see how much the tires are under load on the right side of the vehicle. Again, notice how flat the car is staying even while at the limit of adhesion.

379

More Below...

AEV Dave

08-14-2008, 07:38 PM

Here are a couple more:

Jim and I discussing some finer points...

377

A gratuitous flex shot on one of our dealers vehicles.

378

Me really testing the bumpstops in a big way. (don't do this, the front axle housing isn't too fond of this immature behavior...)

376

dh

JeepinJon

08-14-2008, 07:52 PM

buster04

08-14-2008, 09:14 PM

What is the "net" size difference between the OME kit?

Jdemonto

08-14-2008, 10:21 PM

Very good dave, looks like the Nth is well tested!

Jason

offroader613

08-14-2008, 10:23 PM

Now I just need a JK unlimited and I'll be set. :D

Totenkopf

08-15-2008, 12:59 AM

Awesome suspension. From where'd you get the fender turn signals on this one?

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=370&thumb=1&d=1218759999

Totenkopf

08-15-2008, 01:02 AM

Did you test any with a 5.7 or 6.1? Will they get different springs?

JeepinJon

08-15-2008, 07:44 AM

Awesome suspension. From where'd you get the fender turn signals on this one?

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=370&thumb=1&d=1218759999

Those are the stockers. The fenders just have side marker lights that can be connected into the turn signal as well so they blink. The turn signals are also in the stock location in the grille too.

Ivanko

08-15-2008, 10:32 AM

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=376

:eek::eek::eek:

Motorcycle? sure...

Jeep? HOLY CRAP!!!

AEV Dave

08-15-2008, 10:57 AM

Looks like it should be a great kit. Is that an OME steering stablizer I am seeing? Will that come with the kit, or be available to replace the stock one when the steering correction is done? Also is the black JK running the 3" kit with 35" tires, or the 4" kit that will be coming with 37" tires. I like the proportions of the way it is set up.

Yes, we use the OME damper, in the 3" kit we basically offer a standard kit and a premium kit, the differnece is the front steering correction and damper. In the photos, all but the silver vehicle in the air are running the 3"/35" combo, the silver one is 4"/37"

What is the "net" size difference between the OME kit?

Hard to answer without having identical cars here to measure, I would guess ours is taller.

Did you test any with a 5.7 or 6.1? Will they get different springs?

Yes, we have been testing all three engines. There will be a V8 front spring that is quite a bit heavier.

Awesome suspension. From where'd you get the fender turn signals on this one?

Keen eye, the red Jeep is an export model and the turn signal markers in the flare are bubbled out a bit to act as a side marker also.

Motorcycle? sure...

Jeep? HOLY CRAP!!!

Like I said, don't try that move...

dh

Meeper

08-15-2008, 04:36 PM

dave, the steering dampner isnt included in the steering and premium kits is it?

email me some pictures of the test photos so i can add them as additional images to our site!

AEV Dave

08-15-2008, 04:41 PM

dave, the steering dampner isnt included in the steering and premium kits is it?

email me some pictures of the test photos so i can add them as additional images to our site!

The Damper IS included in the premium kit but is NOT included if you buy the steering correction kit a la carte.

dh

buster04

08-15-2008, 07:13 PM

Can we please have some photos of the side stance profiles of the JK's posing (just parked).. Maybe the 3"/35" combo and the 4"/37" and if you have a 4"/35" would be great.

Meeper

08-15-2008, 10:54 PM

The Damper IS included in the premium kit but is NOT included if you buy the steering correction kit a la carte.

dh

ahh, may want to clear that up in the newsletters and website, i didn't know that, have to fix that when i get to work Monday. Old man Emu right?

Meeper

08-15-2008, 10:55 PM

Awesome suspension. From where'd you get the fender turn signals on this one?

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=370&thumb=1&d=1218759999

those are stock on the overseas models i believe, same thing on the TJ flares, the side lights stick out a little bit, been trying to get them for my TJ for a long time and can't find them

that black JK looks like the one i drove, hehe

AEV Jim

08-18-2008, 10:40 AM

Can we please have some photos of the side stance profiles of the JK's posing (just parked).. Maybe the 3"/35" combo and the 4"/37" and if you have a 4"/35" would be great.

Here's the only shots I have handy: same green Sahara as in some of the pics Dave posted, but with the hardtop on it. This is the 3" system with LT315/75R16 KM2's on Bridger wheels (if you couldn't couldn't tell that already!).

This is with no cargo and a full tank of fuel...but the cool thing is that even after you add 5 water dummies in the seats and 350# of ballast in the back, this car was still ever so slightly 'tail high' as measured at the rock rails (we actually use the frame since the rails can shift around some).

A visual note that's very different about JK compared to what people may be used to from TJ is that the front "flenders" are much higher relative to the frame than the rear flares are, so using wheel-well gaps to determine 'level' is misleading because they're not level to begin with...and if we shot for equal-gaps at GVW, the car would have been even more tail-high when unloaded than the stock JK is...and have some handling negatives too. On top of that, the flenders move a LOT on a JK, so they're never in the same place on two different JKs (or even at two different times on one), so they are a terrible reference point. We always use frame-axle distances to track height.

In the end we've worked to design the springs' heights to split the difference on a fully AEV-upfitted JK (i.e. one that has our hood+bumper+winch, corner guards, a full-size spare, hardtop, etc.): Unloaded the front gap is generally slightly smaller than the rear; then at GVW the rear gap becomes less and the frame nearly level. Again keep in mind that this depends on your equipment choices/weights and if you look at the wheelwells, it'll depend also on the exact position of the flenders on your particular JK,...plus don't forget that as always there is build tolerance on the springs, so don't call us with your caliper measurements...we've done all of that already! :)

We'll round up more pix with the taller 4" system as soon as we have a few representative cars...everything that tall right now is not exactly what the production springs will be...

Jim

AEV Jim

08-18-2008, 10:42 AM

Sorry, fat fingers...those are 315's...i.e. 35" tires...

Jim

Cole

08-18-2008, 02:11 PM

Great news.

After driving one of the Nth suspensions in Moab a few years back on a TJ I have been sold.

Would love to know more about it Jim....and can't wait to drive one. ;)

JeepinJon

08-18-2008, 02:48 PM

Do you know when it will be on the AEV website along with installation directions? I would rather go through AEV than one of their vendors.

AEV Jim

08-18-2008, 03:37 PM

Do you know when it will be on the AEV website along with installation directions? I would rather go through AEV than one of their vendors.

We're working hard on that right now...should be up in a few days. The logistics hassles of getting the right pictures, etc. are the main delay at the moment, but it'll be soon...

Jim

AEV Jim

08-18-2008, 03:42 PM

Great news.

After driving one of the Nth suspensions in Moab a few years back on a TJ I have been sold.

Would love to know more about it Jim....and can't wait to drive one. ;)

Thanks Cole...good to 'see' you prowling around here...:) Though this JK setup is still 'basic' in the sense that it's not a full GyroJointed/Stingered/etc. setup, it goes take the signature on-road Nth-TJ handling and move it up a notch, while still delivering very solid off-road capability. Knowing your driving background, you'll be grinning...:)

You're in CO right? It's only 12 hours to get here...c'mon up! Actually you'll get a chance fairly soon since I'm assuming you'll be showing at various events including ORExpo in Pomona? We'll have at least one rig there if not more JK's...

Jim

Totenkopf

08-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Are these (3" & 4") the only suspensions you have in the works for JKs? If I got the 4", then swapped in a V8 later, would I only need to replace the coils?

AEV Jim

08-18-2008, 05:12 PM

Are these (3" & 4") the only suspensions you have in the works for JKs? If I got the 4", then swapped in a V8 later, would I only need to replace the coils?

That's correct, you should only need to change the front coils.

Jim

Meeper

08-18-2008, 05:17 PM

Do you know when it will be on the AEV website along with installation directions? I would rather go through AEV than one of their vendors.

why would you want to go direct? they are the same price and you can pre-order one from us right now....shipping might even be cheaper through a vendor, this kit does ship truck freight on a pallet you know..

JeepinJon

08-18-2008, 07:47 PM

why would you want to go direct? they are the same price and you can pre-order one from us right now....shipping might even be cheaper through a vendor, this kit does ship truck freight on a pallet you know..

There is a surcharge on all lifts through Quadratec, so shipping would be about $50 cheaper (currently TJ LA though AEV shipping is $167.91, Quadratec is $200.01). Also sometimes it is easier if you ever have any issues. I have seen other manufacturers other than AEV before tell you to work through the vendor, and the vendor tell you to work through the manufacturer leaving the customer in the middle and I don't like being stuck, so I try to go straight to the source whenever possible.

Jdemonto

08-19-2008, 01:14 AM

Not to beat a dead horse, BUT I 100% agee. When I ordered My Aev HL I contacted quadratec and they added me to the list while I understand there was a preorder list at AEV I actually paid them and recieved most of my kit a short time later. Three months after having my Aev HL a rep called to let me know I could place my order. Again I know this is not typical and not the same as an average transaction, It was nice to deal with AEV directly. In fact I will likely order wheels right through AEV instead of my own dealer that would have to charge me more for shipping etc.

Jason

Cole

08-20-2008, 03:34 PM

Thanks Cole...good to 'see' you prowling around here...:) Though this JK setup is still 'basic' in the sense that it's not a full GyroJointed/Stingered/etc. setup, it goes take the signature on-road Nth-TJ handling and move it up a notch, while still delivering very solid off-road capability. Knowing your driving background, you'll be grinning...:)

You're in CO right? It's only 12 hours to get here...c'mon up! Actually you'll get a chance fairly soon since I'm assuming you'll be showing at various events including ORExpo in Pomona? We'll have at least one rig there if not more JK's...

Jim

I would love to come up and play with one. Need to take the JK out for a long test drive anyway. ;)

Laurie

08-21-2008, 11:16 AM

Great thread and wicked photos!

I know the Nth TJ kit was before AEV but Jim, if you've got the time I'd love to see a similar thread focussing on the TJ ;)

AEV Jim

08-21-2008, 02:07 PM

Great thread and wicked photos!

I know the Nth TJ kit was before AEV but Jim, if you've got the time I'd love to see a similar thread focussing on the TJ ;)

It's probably true that I'm way too busy to be typing history all day long, but if I can provide some insights and/or solutions, that's fair. What would you like it to focus on exactly? Stroll over to the TJ section of the forum and start a thread with the topic as you desire it and see what happens! :)

Jim

Cole

08-22-2008, 08:38 AM

I want to see video;)

AEV Jim

08-22-2008, 11:07 AM

Of the test driving? Yeah I suppose you would...:) Unfortunately it takes special permission to just get a still camera onto the proving grounds (almost like airport security for weapons, just without the scanners), haven't even attempted a video camera yet...;)

Jim

Cole

08-22-2008, 11:29 AM

....guess it is time to make our own then:rolleyes:

JeepinJon

08-22-2008, 11:53 AM

....guess it is time to make our own then:rolleyes:

I'll let you do that, I would probably scare myself doing those maneuvers, and if my wife caught me doing those moves in my JK she would kill me

Cole

08-22-2008, 12:26 PM

I'll let you do that, I would probably scare myself doing those maneuvers, and if my wife caught me doing those moves in my JK she would kill me

:D

Would not be my first time with a Jeep on a slalom course;)

http://rockcrawler.com/techreports/superlift_crosstrainer/slalom_superlift.jpg

I was a performance driving instructor for a long time. (short short short short expaination of this)

Laurie

08-22-2008, 01:04 PM

It's probably true that I'm way too busy to be typing history all day long, but if I can provide some insights and/or solutions, that's fair. What would you like it to focus on exactly? Stroll over to the TJ section of the forum and start a thread with the topic as you desire it and see what happens! :)

Jim

When you've got a lil time, follow me over here then (http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=444) :D

JeepinJon

09-02-2008, 03:53 PM

Just thought I would post that the 3" lift is on the AEV site, lots of new stuff on there today :D
Here is the link to it. (http://www.aev-conversions.com/products/nthdegree_jk/)

BigPines

09-02-2008, 04:57 PM

Just thought I would post that the 3" lift is on the AEV site, lots of new stuff on there today :D
Here is the link to it. (http://www.aev-conversions.com/products/nthdegree_jk/)
Sweet! I hope the 4" lift is ready in time for my conversion. :D

Mike

offroader613

09-04-2008, 09:00 PM

Jeez, the JK is all I've had on my mind because of an art class assignment where we paint our own picture on one of the cinder blocks that make up the walls. Not surprisingly, mine is turning out to be a flame red Rubicon (couldn't mix rescue green :(). It all ready has the side vents of the AEV hood, I'm maybe thinking corner guards too. :D:D:D

offroader613

09-08-2008, 10:09 PM

Hoping to snap some photos from my phone when no one else is looking. :D

somewhereinla

09-09-2008, 12:58 AM

the photos only show the unlimited, have the new suspension kit been tested the same way on the 2dr?

JeepinJon

09-09-2008, 11:47 AM

AEV Jim

09-09-2008, 05:15 PM

Knowing the work AEV puts into it's systems I would assume that the same testing went into the 2 door as it would require different shock valving and spring rates compared to the 4 door, but I really am not positive.

Yes, 2-dr. specific testing is ongoing for the eventual release of the 2-dr. systems. They're not ready yet because we've been so busy and the 4-dr. is 80%+ of sales, so the 2-dr. has to wait until we can finish it...but we DO plan to have them in a few months!

Jim

JeepinJon

09-09-2008, 07:24 PM

Yes, 2-dr. specific testing is ongoing for the eventual release of the 2-dr. systems. They're not ready yet because we've been so busy and the 4-dr. is 80%+ of sales, so the 2-dr. has to wait until we can finish it...but we DO plan to have them in a few months!

Jim

Please put the 4" for the four dooe ahead of this. As long as I have what I want I don't care when the 2 door people are take care of. :D:p

Williamst

09-09-2008, 09:22 PM

JeepinJon

09-10-2008, 08:24 AM

Jim,

I assume even though you can't purchase a 2 door lift by itself, could a person bring it up to MT and have it put on? I see it listed on your JK builder page. Also can you choose to have just the lift and gears and not the hood and bumper that is listed in the basic kit?
:confused:
Troy

You can any part of the conversion you want. Last I knew you would want to contact Kent Klein for pricing on any part of the conversion you want them to do.

somewhereinla

09-10-2008, 06:32 PM

Yes, 2-dr. specific testing is ongoing for the eventual release of the 2-dr. systems. They're not ready yet because we've been so busy and the 4-dr. is 80%+ of sales, so the 2-dr. has to wait until we can finish it...but we DO plan to have them in a few months!

Jim

Thanks, that's why I was asking, seems that everybody is going for the 4 doors these days...

Explore

09-11-2008, 09:43 AM

Gents, Will have the 3in Premium Lift completed on my Jk Tomorrow! Cannot wait to pick it up and see the results.. Will check back and give updates.. :D AEV (John) Thanks for all the help.

Ivanko

09-11-2008, 02:56 PM

Gents, Will have the 3in Premium Lift completed on my Jk Tomorrow! Cannot wait to pick it up and see the results.. Will check back and give updates.. :D AEV (John) Thanks for all the help.

Don't forget pictures!

Explore

09-17-2008, 08:35 AM

Here is the skinny, got the lift installed in the past 9 days.. Too many hick-ups to mention but at last it's complete..
I will say that I have NOT YET tested the limits of the suspension as far as AEV has gone but I'm sure it will happen in the future (when wife is not riding)..
The lift is solid!! I would highly recommend it to anyone interested.. The 3in lift is also a hell of alot higher than I expected.. I am currently running 35in tires and there is enough room to twist em' out..
I also took AEV's advice and upgraded the gears to 4.88.. No issues to note during the drive..

Pictures will be posted as soon as it stops raining..( and after I get the mud off:D)
AEV: Fantastic job.. Now about the rear bumper and snorkel????

JeepinJon

09-17-2008, 11:25 AM

I am still trying to decide if I want to get the 3" and extend the bump stops an extra inch and do some trimming to get a 37" tire with little lift, or just wait for the 4". I will probably wait for the 4" because I don't want to reduce the up travel by an inch.

Explore

09-17-2008, 02:37 PM

JeepinJon,
Honestly from what I have been told from AEV, -is that the only difference between the 4in and 3in kits are the springs.. there was no mention of the stops or trimming.. I would venture to say that you could use 37's with the 3in kit with minimal trimming.(best guess). -I chose to (very impatient) start with the 3in and 35's and wear them down first and then jump to new springs and 37's if I felt I needed more.. Bigger is better -but expensive as hell!! Military here, so rolled quaters count! :)

AEV Dave

09-17-2008, 06:57 PM

There are some minor differences. Jim could post them all I'm sure, but the shocks have some different bracketry and the springs obviously are different. To change a 3 to a 4 would be pretty easy.

dh

Explore

09-18-2008, 08:14 AM

Here are some photos..

Tony23

09-18-2008, 10:06 AM

That looks great. How is it on the road compared to stock?

JeepinJon

09-18-2008, 11:22 AM

Looks like your missing a wheel ;)

Must be waiting on the new bumper

Explore

09-18-2008, 11:27 AM

thanks for the salt on the cut! Yes, the spare is missing.. There was a wheel "issue" thats getting worked out ASAP.. Should have the spare on by Saturday..

bbrzl

09-23-2008, 02:05 PM

Man, that looks really nice. I got mine installed a few weekends ago with my dad. Took us quite a while, but it was good father/son time. That's half the reason I enjoy spendin money on my Jeep. Well maybe not half, but it's part... haha
I also had a spare issue... my tire guy didn't order one, even though I paid for it up front... I'm waitin on delivery, and I feel your pain. I'm having to skip a wheelin trip this weekend as a result.
Also... did you have any issues tightenin up the bolts on your steering stabilizer? I found the space to be quite tight... any tips?
Also, did you get your JK programmer already? or is that still in the works?

Explore

09-23-2008, 02:20 PM

The kit was installed for me.. Dont have any time to wrench, would be nice but with my job I gotta work alot to afford AEV's products..jk
The issue I had was the wheels, I required a 10mm offset to get rid of the rubbing and to fit the spare. (if your running AEV 17in wheels this is not a problem). AEV took care of this issue and now I have my Jeep back to normal..

Dirt_sample

09-28-2008, 08:45 PM

Thanks Cole...good to 'see' you prowling around here...:) Though this JK setup is still 'basic' in the sense that it's not a full GyroJointed/Stingered/etc. setup, it goes take the signature on-road Nth-TJ handling and move it up a notch, while still delivering very solid off-road capability. Knowing your driving background, you'll be grinning...:)

You're in CO right? It's only 12 hours to get here...c'mon up! Actually you'll get a chance fairly soon since I'm assuming you'll be showing at various events including ORExpo in Pomona? We'll have at least one rig there if not more JK's...

Jim

Jim,

Are you planning to be @ Pomona on Sunday? I plan to attend and interested in talking with someone about a kit for a two door JK.

By the way; since you are in Missoula do you know the guys over at Al's Cycle?

kntr

09-29-2008, 09:04 AM

Al's Cycle is down by Hamilton. Its about 50-60 miles from AEV.

AEV Jim

09-30-2008, 06:48 PM

Jim,

Are you planning to be @ Pomona on Sunday? I plan to attend and interested in talking with someone about a kit for a two door JK.

By the way; since you are in Missoula do you know the guys over at Al's Cycle?

Sorry I won't be at Pomona for the ORExpo due to timing constraints with vehicles here that need to be done by SEMA. I will be at the AEV/Nth Reunion Trailride at/with All J Products in Big Bear the following weekend though. It's for anyone that has an Nth suspension on their rig.

Never heard of Al's cycle and only been to Hamilton once since moving to MT...

Jim

JeepinJon

09-30-2008, 07:58 PM

Never heard of Al's cycle and only been to Hamilton once since moving to MT...

Not missing much in Hamilton. You are better off heading the other way on 93 towards Polson/Kalispell.:D

Dirt_sample

09-30-2008, 10:45 PM

Sorry I won't be at Pomona for the ORExpo due to timing constraints with vehicles here that need to be done by SEMA. I will be at the AEV/Nth Reunion Trailride at/with All J Products in Big Bear the following weekend though. It's for anyone that has an Nth suspension on their rig.

Never heard of Al's cycle and only been to Hamilton once since moving to MT...

Jim

Auh, you are going to take on Miller Jeep Trail in Big Bear, that is a fun trail.

Have fun and keep us updated as to when the 2 door kit is going to be released.

So many kits to choose from, WHICH ONE?

Totenkopf

10-01-2008, 12:13 AM

Sorry I won't be at Pomona for the ORExpo due to timing constraints with vehicles here that need to be done by SEMA...
Cool...can't wait to see mine!

JeepinJon

10-02-2008, 03:35 PM

I was wondering if there was an update on the 4" kit? Also is there going to be a stinger option, or arm option down the road for those of use that would prefer not to use a cam bolt in the front?

mac

10-06-2008, 07:27 PM

Sorry I won't be at Pomona for the ORExpo due to timing constraints with vehicles here that need to be done by SEMA. I will be at the AEV/Nth Reunion Trailride at/with All J Products in Big Bear the following weekend though. It's for anyone that has an Nth suspension on their rig.

Never heard of Al's cycle and only been to Hamilton once since moving to MT...

Jim

I am looking forward to seeing the lift at SEMA

sent you a PM also..
;)

mac

vedo13

10-11-2008, 04:54 PM

Ok, I'm sure I've seen this somewhere, but I cannot find it! So, what is the difference between the 3" standard kit and the 3" premium kit? I have a stock '08 Sahara, and took it to the Bethel Jeep Jamboree, and saw ALOT of neat things! I think for my purposes, a 3" lift and a set of 33's or 34's would do me just fine. I'm strongly considering this one, but I hear good things about the superlift, and OME lifts, as well. Mine is a daily driver, but I certainly would like to do the Vermont or Bethel jamborees again and not bang up that front bar under the bumper that is attatched to the frame ends again, and stay off my gas tank! I'll have to save up for sure, but by next year, I should be ready with an AEV bumper and skidplate, and....SOME sort of suspension upgrade. :D Thanks for the info!!

Chris

xjski03

10-11-2008, 09:35 PM

The main differance is the "high steer" kit, and the OME steering stabilizer. Another nice thing about the premium kit is it includes the AEV jack base.

vedo13

10-11-2008, 11:19 PM

what does the steering stabilizer do? Do I already have one stock on my jk?

JeepinJon

10-12-2008, 05:08 PM

what does the steering stabilizer do? Do I already have one stock on my jk?

The steering stablizer is there on a stock Jeep, however replacing it with the OME one will give you more fluid volume, and better valving for the increase in tire size. Also the AEV kit will relocate it. Stock it sticks in front of the axle, and will get hit, dented, and broken easily. The AEV kit moves it up and out of the way.

As far as the purpose it is to dampen bump steer.

vedo13

10-13-2008, 09:11 AM

JeepinJon

10-13-2008, 11:09 AM

Great! Thanks! So from what I'm reading, this kit is tuned specifically for the JK, whereas the Superlift 4" Rockrunner jobber or the like isn't really? I have a friend who has that one with ProComp 33's with 16" rims. He says it rides better than stock on the road. What's the important difference between the AEV kit, and, say the Rubicon Express, or Terra Flex kits for JK's?

If you can't tell, I'm building my JK (after a few dents from the last Jamboree) and I understand AEV quality, but I also understand AEV EXPENSE. I'm already sold on the bumper (no "s" to put on "bumper" yet!), and I'm milling over the wheels. I plan on going with a 3" lift, 16" or 17" rims, and 33's. I'm not the most mechanically savvy, and I live in the City with no garage, so, I'll get a good Jeep savvy body shop to do the major stuff, but I DO learn quickly!

Thanks for the advice!
Chris
Baltimore, MD

There are many little differences between the kits. The most important ones would be the spring rate and shock tuning that AEV uses is different. I am not sure what each companys rates are so I can't tell you if their pring rate is higher or not. Also most of the other kits out there uses either an adjustable track bar, or a track bar drop bracket. This esentially makes it so that your roll center is lower making you Jeep handle like it is more top heavy. This can be a problem when cornering or when in off camber situations. The AEV kit raises the track bar to raise the roll center making the Jeep much more stable.

Also you will see with many of the other kits out there they replace the arms. This is a nice feature to have for alignment, and pinion angle adjustments, but they are not giving you much more if any extra flex compared to what you can get when running the stock arms. The main advantage to the stock arms is the fact the parts are available at any dealership. If you run into a problem on the trail and damage a bushing it is easy to get a replacement from any dealership. If the same thing happened with an aftermarket arm you need to go through the company who made the arm, and try to get a bushing from them which could take much longer.

offroader613

10-13-2008, 05:15 PM

If you run into a problem on the trail and damage a bushing it is easy to get a replacement from any dealership. If the same thing happened with an aftermarket arm you need to go through the company who made the arm, and try to get a bushing from them which could take much longer.

Plus they usually try to screw you on prices. Oh wait, dealers sometimes try that too. :( But I totally agree with what Jon said.

vedo13

10-13-2008, 07:56 PM

.....Also you will see with many of the other kits out there they replace the arms. This is a nice feature to have for alignment, and pinion angle adjustments, but they are not giving you much more if any extra flex compared to what you can get when running the stock arms.....

Does this mean that I cannot do pinion angle and alignment adjustments with the AEV kit? Or does that mean that such adjustments will not be needed with the AEV kit? AEV's literature gives me the impression that they've taken the "mix n' match" guess work out of it for you, as opposed to getting a budget set or a full suspension set from company X, and then having to worry later about worn drive shafts, "bump steer," "death wobble," and accelerated wear on this or that. Is that correct? Or is that correct only to the extent that the 3" kit is designed for only certain set-ups of tires, rims, etc? If that is true, what was the set up AEV was thinking when they designed this kit? I'm not looking to climb cliffsides or do any hardcore crawling. But, I want a rig I can go up a mountain with, find and/or cross the trout stream and set up camp, and not have to worry that my jeep won't get me there. That's all. I have a stock as stock can be '08 Sahara with a tow package and 3.73 gears, and a 6-speed tranny. Thanks for the tips! You guys rock!!

Chris

JeepinJon

10-13-2008, 09:00 PM

Does this mean that I cannot do pinion angle and alignment adjustments with the AEV kit? Or does that mean that such adjustments will not be needed with the AEV kit? AEV's literature gives me the impression that they've taken the "mix n' match" guess work out of it for you, as opposed to getting a budget set or a full suspension set from company X, and then having to worry later about worn drive shafts, "bump steer," "death wobble," and accelerated wear on this or that. Is that correct? Or is that correct only to the extent that the 3" kit is designed for only certain set-ups of tires, rims, etc? If that is true, what was the set up AEV was thinking when they designed this kit? I'm not looking to climb cliffsides or do any hardcore crawling. But, I want a rig I can go up a mountain with, find and/or cross the trout stream and set up camp, and not have to worry that my jeep won't get me there. That's all. I have a stock as stock can be '08 Sahara with a tow package and 3.73 gears, and a 6-speed tranny. Thanks for the tips! You guys rock!!

Chris

The way you can adjust this is via the cam bolts. You can usually get the alignment within reason with the bolts, but you are going to want to check them regularly with a torque wrench since most cam bolts are known for loosening up and shifting the alignment.

Also if you ever do want to upgrade to an aftermarket shaft then the arms would be needed. For some people this will never be an issue, and for others their driveshaft goes quickly depending on each persons wheeling style. I am not very rough on my vehicle, but from my research with most other 4" lift kits on an auto you run into an issue with the front drive shaft boot tearing because under flex it makes contact with the transmission skid.

I think in my plans I will try a set of aftermarket skids if I don't think there is enough clearance with the AEV kit, and then if I still don't feel like I have enough room then I will get new arms, and a thinner driveshaft like the JE Reel or Tom Woods style. Just working on all the little things prior to the lift, but it shouldn't be too much longer. I am just wanting to wrap up the electrical first (being taken care of later this week with a new sPod :D) and then the AEV front and rear bumper since I don't want to be hanging an oversized tire on the swing gate

0317_guy

11-16-2008, 09:13 PM

Does the AEV 3 inch lift work with the two door JK? Are new drive shafts a requirement or "highly recommended"?

AEV Jim

11-21-2008, 04:39 PM

Does the AEV 3 inch lift work with the two door JK? Are new drive shafts a requirement or "highly recommended"?

JeepinJon has this thread pretty much handled, so I'll just swoop in late here and answer this one: We are working on the 2-doors, and all of the bracket/arm-related stuff will be the same, but because of the drastically different weights and wheelbase of the 2-dr. vs. a 4-dr., you can't just use the 4-door springs on a 2-door...it would sit too high, ride too stiff, and the handling would want to swap ends at the drop of a hat on slippery surfaces. Stay tuned for a 2-dr. release announcement when they're ready...

jim

0317_guy

11-22-2008, 03:08 PM

JeepinJon has this thread pretty much handled, so I'll just swoop in late here and answer this one: We are working on the 2-doors, and all of the bracket/arm-related stuff will be the same, but because of the drastically different weights and wheelbase of the 2-dr. vs. a 4-dr., you can't just use the 4-door springs on a 2-door...it would sit too high, ride too stiff, and the handling would want to swap ends at the drop of a hat on slippery surfaces. Stay tuned for a 2-dr. release announcement when they're ready...

jim

Thanks for the response Jim,

I can understand the spring rates of the two door and four door are going to be different, like those of the Old Man Emu springs, but I see you are using cam bolts to address the Castor/pinion angle issues.

Have you guys had many reports coming in on them loosening up on people(those that have this on the four door) and how well are they(cam bolts) holding up?

How well does the 3 and 4 inch lift on the 4 doors handle jacking, torque steer, ride steer, roll steer and bump steer?

AEV Jim

11-24-2008, 12:39 PM

Haven't had any of the loosening that others are reporting with cam bolts. Maybe we're not doing something right (er,...wrong), but they've not been a problem for us at all...and way simpler/cheaper than a whole new set of arms just for another 1/4" of length (especially considering the perfectly-good arms that come on JK's).

As for all of the dynamics terms you threw out there, they do fine...even more than I would have thought considering the total lack of control arm geometry correction (which is a big deal that few companies have ever figured out on TJSA's). Jacking was one of my wonderments with how much I raised the rear track bar, but try as I have it simply doesn't. I was pretty confident it wouldn't jack because the new roll center is now about where I have it on the TJLA's and they don't jack even with a narrower track.

Torque steer is not a 'normal' term in use in vehicle dynamics (at least not as I learned it), so I'm going to guess you're referring to a combination of the effects of anti-squat and roll-steer. Thanks to the longer arms and different starting geometry of JK (vs. TJ), the JK gains more of both when lifted, but not past 100% antisquat, so it really doesn't appear to be an issue in testing.

Ride Steer and Bump Steer are the same thing (at least for the front suspension), and while the standard 3" kit doesn't have issues along these lines, the on-center precision of the steering is enhanced by having the 'high steer' that comes in the premium kits. Ride steer from the rear would require steep trackbar angles (like some other JK lifts!) combined with severe planview rear LCA angles - much worse than normal JK - so even with back trackbar angles, a JK doesn't have rear ride-steer issues.

Roll Steer is the traditional bane of all non-geometry-corrected TJSA lifts (i.e. anything that's not Nth or some old Superlift and DickCepek kits). As mentioned above the JK's longer stock arms mean less increase in roll steer for a given amount of lift height, so the threshold for decent handling without geometry correction appears to be above 4" for JK where it was above only 2.5" on TJ SWB.

Hope that helps...

Jim

Cole

11-24-2008, 03:18 PM

JeepinJon

11-24-2008, 07:50 PM

Any disadvantage to running other adjustable type arms or "high clearance" arms with the kit? Arms that move the axle rearward an 1"?

Just a thought for those that may appreciate the Expedition/touring nature of the lift buy might want a bit more rock crawler nature at times.

This is an option. I know I am looking at getting this and then down the road adding the Clayton arms, and extended brake lines to upgrade the kit a little. am hoping by next spring when I am ready that they will have a stinger so I can just get lower arms.

vedo13

11-25-2008, 02:48 PM

I only plan on running 33's and I have 3.73 gears, and wheeling, don't plan on doing any trail more than a #6 on the Jamboree scale. And, it's a daily driver. Do you think the 3" pemium kit would be overkill for me? Mudholes seem to be all we have here in Maryland, but I've got the whole East Coast to play in. Anyroad, I've read where many folks just throw on a 2.5" BB and 33" (insert favorite Mud Terrain here) and go. What am I avoiding by getting the AEV. Jon, you're great! I'm sure you can appreciate that the wife reads this forum, and she learns alot too! She carries $$ approval. I'm sure you can relate.

Vedo

JeepinJon

11-25-2008, 03:49 PM

You can always go with a budget boost, but it really isn't going to make anything better. If you go with a spring lift you are going to get more articulation than stock since you can usually run a longer shock and get more droop, and most 3" lifts give you more than 3" so you will get more uptravel as well.

also when you get a spring that has been tuned propery you will get better handling charachteristics than a budget boost. The budget boost reuses the same springs that were only designed for the stock height and stock loads. Once you start altering these items then these springs are no longer performing at their best. Once you add on the aftermarket bumpers, winch, etc... you are really taking the stock springs out of the element they were designed for. This is why we are seeing many companies that were pushing their budget boosts early on now switching to pushing a 2.5" spring lift. A good spring really can't be beat by a budget boost.

vedo13

11-26-2008, 03:41 PM

So, for the price, I'm paying mainly for the springs and shocks?? And the SPRINGS? Will this kit leave me with wear problems due to not being able to adjust pinion angle or worn bushings? Also, and this is a bit off topic, if I go with standard 12.5" 33's, will I have to use spacers with Pintlers or Bridgers? Is there a 33' wheel out there that I can put on the stock 18" rim, or 17" stock Rubi rim, or is that a fable? I've read posts by many who regard spacers as ee-VIL!! Yet, many after market companies routinely build jeeps with their lifts/suspensions that use them. What gives?

JeepinJon

11-26-2008, 04:11 PM

You are paying for the springs, shocks, sway bar extensions, bump stop extensions, can't forget the R&D that went into this kit compared to others, and geometry correction to the track bars (many kbudget boosts just came with shock extenders and pucks, and a few with track bar drop brackets). With the premium kit you also get the drag link flip, steering stabalizer relocation kit, the jack extention, and a programmer for the speedo. With the wear components you should be just fine with the 3" kit. All of the bushings and suspension joints on the JK are not serviceable, and should hold up just fine. You may want to fully flex the front to check for clearance of the driveshaft around the trasnmission skid if you have an auto since this is known to make contact and shorten the lift on other kits.

As far as the tires go you can easilly fit a 33" tire onto any AEV wheel without any spacers. If you stick with the stock wheels you would need a spacer to run any 12.5" wide tire to keep from rubbing.

djb_rh

11-27-2008, 02:46 PM

The spacer issue may turn into a holy war, but my opinion, having used them in car racing applications, is there's nothing wrong with using proper spacers. DO NOT USE WASHERS OR INDEPENDENT BUSHINGS. But as long as you use a single plate spacer made for your application, there's virtually no difference between that and a wheel with the proper offset (assuming properly torqued lugs and all that).

You do also need to make sure you get plenty of threads on your lug nuts if you have to go that route. I've heard engineers say as few as three threads is enough, but there's NO WAY I'd go that low. You should probably get eight full revolutions on the lug nut, I think.

(FWIW, I've seen what happens on MULTIPLE occasions when you try to use washers as spacers. IT DOES NOT WORK. YOU WILL LOSE A WHEEL.)

--Donnie

AEV Jim

12-01-2008, 01:15 PM

Well while I've been away JeepinJon and djb_rh seem to have this thread handled! JJ's right about the merits of a 'real lift' like ours vs. a BB, and djb_rh is right (IMO) that wheel spacers are fine if used right and a solid piece of quality aluminum (usually).

To clear up the thread engagement issue djb_rh was talking about: The official fastener engineering 'best practice' is for there to be three full threads past the end of the nut, not just three threads inside the nut. This is based on how the stress from the thread interface with the nut dissipates as the material of the bolt continues through the nut. I admit I've let less than three threads go without any horrible failures, but I think about this every time I size a bolt for an application: you need some threads past the nut, preferably at least 3...

Jim

JeepinJon

12-03-2008, 02:59 PM

Was this picture taken while the Jeep was still running the rear stinger, and with the stock arms and no stinger how will this affect the reaer articulation.http://forum.aev-conversions.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=378&thumb=1&d=1218760792
Picture of the stinger system on it.
http://www.project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=17480&g2_serialNumber=2
Also from the picture you can see that the stinger arm is located off of the evap canister. Any chance in the designs process you could come up with a skid for the canister, or incorporate in a relocation system to help protect it?

AEV Jim

12-05-2008, 12:06 PM

Hey John, you really dig up the pictures don't you! Yes that rig is (still) running the Stinger and always has since we built it in mid-2007. As with TJ or any other application, the Stinger itself will have no effect on rear articulation vs. a non-Stinger setup (unless it was a leaf-spring rig in which case you might loose <10% of your static articulation).

The real answer is that this rig is running some experimental geometry correction that drastically changes the way the rear arms move the axle around. The system has worked flawlessly to-date (both durability and on/off-road performance), and does in fact add articulation to the rear via some hard-to-explain effects, but it costs more and requires at least 4" of lift to package it. Consequently for both reasons it is not included in our present systems, though we are looking at doing something somewhat like it for when we launch the JK STinger - because testing has shown that at least some geometry change is required when the upper arms are removed to use a Stinger. There are three other JKs that also have been running this setup for the same 1.5+ years and all are doing great still. I hope we'll eventually do it as a product, but for now there's no reason to hold your breath..:(

Jim

AEV Jim

12-05-2008, 12:07 PM

As for the canister skid. We've thought about it, but not seriously (yet). I think Kilby or somebody else already makes one?

Jim

JeepinJon

12-06-2008, 11:21 PM

As for the canister skid. We've thought about it, but not seriously (yet). I think Kilby or somebody else already makes one?

Jim

They do make one to relocate it, but I was thinking that it could interfere with the stinger arm, and wanted to make any future upgrades as easay as possible.

AEV Jim

12-09-2008, 01:15 PM

They do make one to relocate it, but I was thinking that it could interfere with the stinger arm, and wanted to make any future upgrades as easay as possible.

I'll have to look at one to confirm, but I thought when I saw one that it looked like it would clear a Stinger - not sure though...

Jim

JeepinJon

12-31-2008, 08:48 AM

Any ETA on the 4" lift yet? Last I heard the brackets you were waiting on arrived and it should be any time now. Also if I were to order the premium kit prior to the programmers being available would these be shipped at a later date? Also will the stock Rubi tires and wheels work with the suspension after the lift until aftermarket ones are purchased, or will spacers be needed? Seems a few companies have had issues with the sway bar connectors hitting the tire / wheel when flexed.

chasinternet

01-02-2009, 02:33 PM

Also will the stock Rubi tires and wheels work with the suspension after the lift until aftermarket ones are purchased, or will spacers be needed? Seems a few companies have had issues with the sway bar connectors hitting the tire / wheel when flexed.

AEV is using links with tapered top ends that will work if you mount them on the inside of the sway bar. Some companies do not use a tapered end for the top and that will hit the rim or the frame with stock Rubi wheels - there is no way to make them work. I learned this the hard way - on the outboard it hit/scratched into the wheels - on the inside it hit/scratched into the frame and bent the break line.

http://www.aev-conversions.com/pdf/isheets/AEV-Nth_JK Std_Susp_Instructions_A.pdf
"Step 19: Install New Stabilzer End Links. Assemble both new stabilizer end links by screwing a zerc fitting into the small tapped hole on the ball-jointed end, and a bushing and inner metal tube into the ring end. Install them to the Jeep in the same manner as the originals that have been removed (figure 19-1).
CAUTION: If you are still using your stock JK wheels, you should reverse the mounting and place the links on the inboard side of the bar-ends and axle tabs as shown in figure 19-2. This should allow the links to clear as they will not if mounted in the normal outboard position."

Here is an example - the type on left is tapered, the right is not and the top is too wide for stock Rubicon wheels (large backspacing does not allow enough clearance). The links in the AEV kit are more like the factory links on top - plus have a zerc fitting for grease. (see the insturction PDF for pic)
http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/chasinternet/Lift/320X240/RearLift018a.jpg

JeepinJon

01-06-2009, 02:57 PM

Jim / Dave

Any word on the 4" kit yet? I installed my AEV bumper and a Warn 9.5ti and have some front sag (about 1/2" of up travel left in the suspension before hitting the bumpstops). I know that TJ front springs would correct this, but hoping it is soon enough I can do it once. I have no problem buying it to do beta testing.;)

AEV Dave

02-01-2009, 03:48 PM

I think the 4" is getting released this week or next, from what I understand all the parts are now in stock, its just a matter of releasing it to the dealers, making the announcement and getting the website turned on. I think the 2 Door kit is the same.

dh

JeepinJon

02-02-2009, 08:03 AM

Good thing I have some time coming up in a few weeks so I can install this. :D

vedo13

02-02-2009, 09:34 AM

So John,
When you get the 4", are you going to use the cam bolts, or are you getting adjustable control arms?

Dave,
If I decide that the future flexibility is worth the cost of buying additional adjustable lower control arms (for me), can I do that with the 3" kit and add them when I have the body shop install it?

JeepinJon

02-02-2009, 09:52 AM

So John,
When you get the 4", are you going to use the cam bolts, or are you getting adjustable control arms?

I think at the moment I will get either the Clayton control arms or the Currie ones. The only reason though is because I plan on upgrading the driveshafts at some point along with the front axle to the Dyna Trac 44, and I will need them at that time any way.

I know that I want to go to 37" tires eventually, but I think I will get the 4.5" lift and run 35" tires until after I get the driveline upgraded and regeared, but I would rather just do the lift once.

Cole

06-04-2009, 02:37 PM

Well, I got my hands on the 4.5" kit and started some "testing" of my own. Thought I would share a bit of it here. These will just be teaser pics. I want to put some real miles and real wheeling on it before making a full judgement. FWIW, I took off about $3k of suspension parts to test this out.

First thing I wanted to do was see how all this hype about on road performance really stood up. Since I had access to a MasterDrive test facility we took the Jeep out on the track the day after installing the suspension.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/3550161284_f986ed3407_b.jpg

This should give you and idea how hard we were actually pushing the Jeep.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3391/3549416134_597f381468_b.jpg

Igmar

06-04-2009, 04:20 PM

Looks like a lot of fun! And the jeep seems to keep up with you rather well, considering those M/T's arn't exactly made for racing around a track! :p

And I have say, those are some nice looking wheels you got on there, may I ask who makes them?

Cole

06-04-2009, 08:48 PM

Thanks.

They are Racelines.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/3258481653_36beb58c97_b.jpg

kntr

06-07-2009, 11:14 PM

Looks like you are still running adjustable lower control arms.

JeepinJon

06-08-2009, 08:12 AM

On JKOwners forum he said he switched to the stock arms again. Just an older picture I am guessing.

offroader613

06-08-2009, 08:20 AM

On JKOwners forum he said he switched to the stock arms again. Just an older picture I am guessing.

Yep, also, he still had factory flares on in that last photo. The top ones have Bushwackers now

Cole

06-08-2009, 08:46 AM

Yep. Igmar asked about the wheels so I posted a better picture of them. Older picture which has the old suspension on it. Right now I am running 100% the way AEV intended with stock arms, their shocks etc.

kntr

06-09-2009, 07:17 AM

And how is it compared to the older lift with the arms?

Cole

06-09-2009, 12:48 PM

And how is it compared to the older lift with the arms?

Honestly, I have been trying to get a bunch of miles on it and a bunch of terrain variety before writing it all down.

I will say that I am VERY impressed.

It is sometimes hard to judge a suspension when going from stock to 3-4" lift. You change so many dynamics that it is hard to tell some of the issues right off.

We tend to make excusess like "It's a lifted Jeep, it's supposed to drive that way".

When you first lift a Jeep from stock you change to bigger tires, taller springs, control arms with hard joints etc. Hard for the average Joe to tell why the ride and handling is the way it is. They shug off the harshness as the tires, or the wander as the increase in wheel width, or the handling issues as solely based on the increase in height.

I always find it an interesting contrast to go from one lift to another. That is when you can REALLY tell if there is a difference. Then you start to get constants. My tires are the same, my wheels, height is really close, etc.

I can say that I am absolutly amazed at how smooth the ride is on the wash board road to the local dog park. A total transformation!!!!!! Before I had to creep down the road to not shake my Jeep apart. Now I can run it at ANY speed I want, slow, fast, doesn't really matter. Smooth as silk.

I will post more later.

Cole

07-03-2009, 07:35 PM

Took it up Wheeler Lake today.

Couple of shots for reference. Rides really smooth over the rocks.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3641/3685141961_3c0b30625b_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2436/3685175275_2a6d69e9c5_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2545/3685168543_8d31e7f7f7_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3685991386_e1317ec87c_b.jpg

JeepinJon

07-03-2009, 11:42 PM

I still find it amazing how much flex you can get out of a JK with the stock arms. :eek:

Summit Jeep

07-04-2009, 12:51 PM

I would have liked to have watched this run. I live in Placer Valley and have a Unlimited Rubi but have not done Wheeler yet. I am the only silver 4 dr in the valley. I will watch for you guys.

ROLLY

08-02-2009, 11:25 PM

373

that's not the shocks included in the kit!:confused:
hmmm...
what shocks are those?

AEV Jim

08-03-2009, 03:18 PM

that's not the shocks included in the kit!:confused:
hmmm...
what shocks are those?

Zoiks that's some picture-scrutinizing Rolly! That picture Dave posted is an old one from the days of developing the suspension. That was taken when we were developing the springs...which comes before tuning shocks....so we were using what we had on the Jeep (i.e. for that evaluation the shocks being used matter very little). Those happen to be Superlift/Edelbrock reservoir shocks. Cole is of course running the AEV-tuned/Bilstein-built shocks that come in the kits...

Jim

ROLLY

08-03-2009, 04:44 PM

Zoiks that's some picture-scrutinizing Rolly! That picture Dave posted is an old one from the days of developing the suspension. That was taken when we were developing the springs...which comes before tuning shocks....so we were using what we had on the Jeep (i.e. for that evaluation the shocks being used matter very little). Those happen to be Superlift/Edelbrock reservoir shocks. Cole is of course running the AEV-tuned/Bilstein-built shocks that come in the kits...

Jim

Thanks a lot !!!:D