Go Back   American Expedition Vehicles - Product Forums > All AEV Products > Ram, Prospector, Recruit Parts & Product Discussion

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Unread 12-23-2015, 06:04 PM
MarAgt MarAgt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 107
Default

Thanks Stunt Man
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Unread 12-23-2015, 06:12 PM
RF2200 RF2200 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northeast Iowa
Posts: 274
Default

The AEV Ram bumper should fit at least a 1" shackle (~1-1/8" actual pin diameter). Do not buy a 7/8" shackle unless it is one of the high strength alloy units mentioned previously. A "normal" shackle like the Crosby G-209 or the ARB unit that Dave mentioned needs to be 1" nominal size to meet the load requirements. I referenced an actual pin size of 1-3/32" for the ARB shackle in an earlier post, this is because I called ARB and had them measure their ARB207E shackle pin with calipers. In general, a shackle pin should be 1/8" larger than the nominal size.

A 7/8" alloy shackle should be stronger than a 1" carbon shackle. For reference, the Skookum 7/8" alloy shackle has a WLL of 24,000 LB. The Crosby 7/8" G-209 has a WLL of 14,326 LB. The Crosby 7/8" G-209A has a WLL of 20,938 LB. Also the Skookum is rated at 12 short tons and the Crosby is rated at 9.5 metric tons. So unless you are absolutely sure assume the shackle rating is in short tons. All of these shackles are "forged" so that is not really a selling point. All of the shackles that I mentioned are available in multiple finishes including galvanized/zinc plated. The difference is in the steel - "alloy steel" (Federal Specification RR-C-271F Type IVA, Grade B, Class 2) vs "carbon steel" (Federal Specification RR-C-271F Type IVA, Grade A, Class 2) and quenching/tempering to some extent.

https://www.wbdg.org/ccb/FEDMIL/rrc271f.pdf

For comparison:
Skookum 3/4" 263 Alloy Anchor Shackle - WLL 18,000 LB
Crosby 1" G-209 Carbon Anchor Shackle - WLL 18,734 LB
__________________
Ram Laramie Power Wagon
AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
Land Rover 110
Unimog U1200
Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

Last edited by RF2200; 12-23-2015 at 07:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Unread 12-23-2015, 07:11 PM
RF2200 RF2200 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northeast Iowa
Posts: 274
Default

A good set of shackles and a snatch block should last a lifetime if properly maintained and not abused. They also hold their value well if you ever need to sell them in the future. A quality snatch block for an AEV Ram is going to cost $650 so they are not cheap. Keep in mind that if you keep them on your bumper at all times they can get stolen or the screw pin can work loose. A bolt type shackle may be a better option for the front bumper.
__________________
Ram Laramie Power Wagon
AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
Land Rover 110
Unimog U1200
Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Unread 12-23-2015, 09:56 PM
stunt man hans stunt man hans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 221
Default

maybe i got the size incorrect but the alloy skookum shackles i have have a marked working load limit that is considerably higher than the crosby shackles.

also what snatch block costs 650$ lol i bought warns 30k pound block for a hundred something. i'll post links to what i have as its pouring outside and don't feel like digging through the draws on the decked system to get the stuff out for a pic.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Unread 12-23-2015, 10:38 PM
stunt man hans stunt man hans is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 221
Default

https://www.warn.com/truck/accessori...h_blocks.shtml

part number 63490 for the snatch block. western rigging supply is where i picked up all the shackles. and to my knowledge forged vs, cast shackles does matter as does the material. cast shackles are generally going to have a lower working load limit compared to a forged shackle like a crosby or van beest.

the size i might be wrong on i bought three of the crosby shackles and two of the skookum. i thought they where 7/8th with a 1 inch pin but i could be mistaken. what ever size i got of the large sized shackles fits the bumper well.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Unread 12-24-2015, 08:17 PM
RF2200 RF2200 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northeast Iowa
Posts: 274
Default

If you bought a Skookum or Crosby snatch block it would be at least $650. It would also weigh at least 50 pounds. Regarding the "forged", I was referring to the Crosby, Skookum, CM, Campbell, Van Beest, etc. which are all forged which makes it not really a selling point among these high quality shackles. You are completely right though, forged is superior to cast in this application. If you get a cheap Smittybilt shackle it is more than likely cast.

Forging offers uniformity of composition and structure. Forging results in metallurgical recrystalisation and grain refinement as a result of the thermal cycle and deformation process. This strengthens the resulting steel product particularly in terms of impact and shear strength. Forged steel is generally stronger and more reliable than castings and plate steel due to the fact that the grain flows of the steel are altered, conforming to the shape of the part.

No doubt the Skookum shackle you bought is super heavy duty. Even the 3/4" Skookum is strong enough for these trucks. If the others are all alloy like the one liked below then you are good. The rating is stamped on them, as you know.

Link to 7/8" Crosby Alloy Screw Pin Anchor Shackle
http://www.westechrigging.com/shackl...-209a-078.html

Link to Crosby Snatch Block WLL 33,000 LB - $2,170
http://www.westechrigging.com/block-...19-203041.html
This is a 16" Sheave, so it is huge, and it is sized for a 3/4" wire rope. What you would want is a 6" sheave sized for a 7/16" wire rope. I had Skookum price this out with a 40,000 LB WLL and it was around $650. 20 ton because I would use it for my Unimog as well.

Merry Christmas
__________________
Ram Laramie Power Wagon
AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
Land Rover 110
Unimog U1200
Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

Last edited by RF2200; 12-28-2015 at 09:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 12-28-2015, 09:12 AM
RF2200 RF2200 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northeast Iowa
Posts: 274
Default

I looked into the Warn snatch block a little further because something seemed not quite right about it. Lighter than an Alloy rigging block? $150 vs $650? Huge 33,000 LB WLL?

The Warn 63490 actually has a 6 ton WLL, so 12,000 LB. Not 33,000 LB. It is stamped right on the block. Warn states that it is OK to use with a 16.5 Ti winch because it has a safety factor of 3:1 which would indicate a breaking strength of 18 ton or 36,000 pounds. Not much over the 33,000 LB of pull your winch can put on the block. Actually a 1.09:1 safety factor. With this logic we should all be using 3/8" or smaller shackles on our trucks. Crosby G-209A 3/8" Anchor Shackle has 2 ton (metric) WLL with 5:1 safety factor, so 22,040 LB breaking strength. Which is actually a greater safety factor at 1.34:1 than the Warn snatch block.

Looked up the Snatch Block on Alibaba.com and it sells for around $8 a unit. Yes, Eight dollars a snatch block. If you don't believe me, I can provide links.

I am upset that Warn would sell such a product. Not that they sell an $8 yarding block for a retail price of $225. But that they sell winch recovery equipment with a 1.09:1 safety factor.

Smittybilt sells what appears to be exactly the same snatch block for half the price $89 with the exception that it has a stated higher 36,000 LB WLL (use with 18,000 LB winches, so same as Warn 83086) and that it is painted black. It is also stamped with a 6 Ton WLL which means it has a 1:1 safety factor, or said another way, it has no safety factor.

Some might argue that the WLL of the Warn 63490 is actually in metric tons. I cannot find anywhere that states that the WLL is in metric tons and even if it was that would only change the safety factor to 1.2:1 which is still appallingly low.
__________________
Ram Laramie Power Wagon
AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
Land Rover 110
Unimog U1200
Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

Last edited by RF2200; 12-28-2015 at 01:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 12-28-2015, 12:45 PM
RF2200 RF2200 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northeast Iowa
Posts: 274
Default

There are essentially no requirements or safety standards for horizontal pulling. The thought being that if something breaks nothing is going to fall, or generally come crashing down.

I agree that there is less risk when compared to vertical (crane) lifting and I am definitely not for some type of government regulation governing how I use my winch. However, otherwise smart people are injured winching, jacking, towing all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexBxd_oC4U

WLL are put on items so that there is a more-than adequate safety factor. Usually these are a 5:1 factor. For anything that will support a life there will generally be a safety factor of 10:1 or greater.

Shackles get bent and side loaded, snatch blocks seize and rust, winch lines kink and fray. Most people don't understand basic statics or materials science. What happens to steel when it gets hot? cold? bent? rusty? What is the difference between alloy, carbon, cast, forged, quenched, tempered, galvanized, plated, fatigue resistance, toughness, ductility, working load limit, minimum breaking strength - most people don't know or care.

If you do care and want to know this is a good basic video made by Columbus McKinnon describing the different types of shackles and the different materials they are made with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8O7SknMrIs
__________________
Ram Laramie Power Wagon
AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
Land Rover 110
Unimog U1200
Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

Last edited by RF2200; 12-28-2015 at 01:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 12-28-2015, 02:57 PM
MarAgt MarAgt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 107
Default

Thanks RF2200, you've provided us all with a ton of information on shackles and snatch blocks.

As you eluded to, there isn't s particular standard for how companies list their WLL's.

I also contacted Warn about their Epic line of shackles, snatch blocks and hooks. They replied stating their Epic 18,000lb gear is what is required for their 16.5ti winch.

https://www.warn.com/truck/accessori..._shackle.shtml

https://www.warn.com/truck/accessori...tchblock.shtml

https://www.warn.com/truck/accessori...inchhook.shtml

https://www.warn.com/truck/accessori...rotector.shtml


Very confusing.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 12-29-2015, 09:06 AM
RF2200 RF2200 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northeast Iowa
Posts: 274
Default

I have an email in to Warn so I can have their response in writing, and will keep you posted. They are closed for the week and should reopen first week of January.

But, waiting their reply I can tell you some things about the Epic Shackle and Snatch Block. First, the 93195 snatch block is indeed intended by Warn to be used with winches up to 18,000 LB capacity, so 18 Ton (36,000 LB) "rating". It is actually stamped with 18T on it. It costs less and has a higher "rating" 18T vs 6T than the 63490. Not sure what the safety factor is, if any. The shackle is a 3/4" nominal size, so not big, but "rated" for 18,000 LB. This is the same "rating" that Skookum has on their 3/4" Alloy shackle. I have a very hard time believing that the Warn Epic shackle is as strong as the Skookum and my guess is Warn has a much smaller safety factor on their shackle.

Also, to clarify, there are standards for how companies design WLL. However, it is for the overhead rigging industry not winching. So if you want shackles, snatch blocks, cables, straps, slings, etc. that are tested and rated with safety factors then buy products designed for overhead rigging which the Skookum, Crosby, CM, Campbell, Van Beest are.

Keep in mind that while a 7/8" Crosby G209 shackle may have a WLL of 6-1/2T (14,326LB) and is not technically rated for use with a 16,500LB winch, it has a safety factor of 6:1. Its maximum Proof Load is 2.0 times the Working Load Limit and its minimum Ultimate Strength is 6 times the Working Load Limit (85,956LB). I am not saying that anyone should intentionally exceed the WLL, I am just saying that you may be safer overloading a quality shackle from a quality company than using a cheap made in China product below its "WLL" because while the made in China shackle may have 9.5T stamped on it its ultimate breaking strength may be unknown, it may have a safety factor that is not adequate, it may have quality control issues, generally it just has more risk. If you accept the risk for the savings in money then go for it.

Also, keep in mind that China is a communist country. They do not believe in American values including individualism, competition, and property ownership, which includes intellectual property. I own multiple companies and hold multiple patents and I feel for innovative companies like Rotpax, Maxtrax, or even AEV when Chinese companies blatantly rip off their inventions like this company http://unity4wd.en.alibaba.com .

It is easy to copy something. It is hard to invent it. Every time you buy a Chinese product you are supporting their actions. Don't get me wrong, Chinese manufacturing is great to a certain extent. Why use our steel when we can have theirs for cheap, why use our labor when we can have theirs for cheap, why ruin our natural resources when we can have theirs for cheap. This is a logical and beneficial arrangement for the United States, but not at the expense of the values that make the entire economy work which includes personal property ownership.
__________________
Ram Laramie Power Wagon
AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
Land Rover 110
Unimog U1200
Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.