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  • #31
    Originally posted by MaloCS View Post
    I don't doubt that some folks have damaged or broken the sway bar in their outings but I've never seen that happen in the 9 years I've been off roading; even in my old IFS rig.

    Another thing to elaborate on is the rating definitions we give the trails we drive. What I consider difficult someone else may consider moderate. I can say this, on the trails that most 4x4ers consider difficult in Colorado I've never had an issue with being connected or witnessed a situation where being connected caused damage to the sway bar. On the other hand, there are trails that I consider EXTREME where I would want to be disconnected for that extra inch or so of wheel travel.

    Regardless, I tend to drive very conservatively when it comes to tire placement and torque. I don't rely on the skinny pedal to get me past an obstacle and I subscribe to the hard fast rule that brains is more efficient then brawn. Driving with this mentality has served me well and prolonged the life of my vehicle and it's parts.
    Unless they had the Nth Degree articulation, we are talking apples to oranges.
    Colorado Trails are breathtaking, but only a few of the trails still open are considered extreme. Scary maybe to flat-landers, but not extreme
    Where we can agree is that the skinny pedal is no substitution for wheel placement and/or driving ability, None of the sway bar breaks occurred at speeds above 2 mph.
    Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
    4540 Motorsports

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    • #32
      Originally posted by JeepinJon View Post
      I agree. I have heard that the current AEV site can't handle all of the parts, and changes that have gone on at AEV since the new site was reintroduced.

      On a positive note I have also heard that AEV is working on a complete site redesign, and transfering to a system that will be able to handle the current demands, and then some.
      Woo Hoo!
      Tomorrow is not soon enough! Customers are going to other brands when they can't see what they want on-line.
      If they can't see it, they don't know to ask for it...
      Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
      4540 Motorsports

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by MoparNorm View Post
        Colorado Trails are breathtaking, but only a few of the trails still open are considered extreme. Scary maybe to flat-landers, but not extreme
        That's the point... you're talking EXTREME rock crawling while I'm talking about DIFFICULT trails that offer more challenge then just driving over 4 foot boulders. I have no aspirations of driving EXTREME rock crawling trails; I'll leave that to the guys with purpose built rigs and to the guys who just don't give a flying $%#^.

        Your advice, although pertinent to EXTREME trail runners just doesn't hold water for the rest of us. You may be an EXTREME rock crawler while I know for a fact that I'm not. I'm okay with that because the trails I drive make up for broken axles by factoring in a cold, hard, death factor. The infamous Black Bear trail in Ouray is by definition, NOT an EXTREME, hard core, rock crawling trail that requires every last ounce of wheel travel and vehicle sturdiness. What it does offer is the chance to die if you put your tire in the wrong place and fall 1,100 vertical feet to the valley floor.

        I find it annoying that every last ounce of advice from web wheelers is geared towards hard core, extreme rock crawling because not everyone drives those trails. A person's rig should be built to handle the type of driving they do most often and for me, that's Colorado's many difficult trails. In my specific situation, leaving the sway bar connected is a perfectly feasible option that not only provides plenty of balance but plenty of control without damaging any other drive line and suspension components. I know this from 9 years of off roading experience in both an IFS and solid axle vehicle.

        As far as your advice is concerned I completely agree that there are specific trails where every last ounce of wheel travel is preferred. This is why I DO disconnect my sway bar on those specific trails; like Cliff Hanger or Golden Spike in Moab. Regardless, I just don't see the reason or need to disconnect on Colorado trails like Black Bear, Old Chinaman's or Wheeler Lake.

        Again, I leave the had core, extreme, rock crawling trails to other people that enjoy that kind of rush. I don't and probably never will, at least not when I'm wheeling my daily driver. If I ever find myself with enough extra cash to build a purpose built, trailer queen you can bet your ass I'll be wheeling those trails but until that time comes I'll stick to moderate and difficult trails that offer more thrills then just crawling over 4 foot boulders; like Italian Creek that is a 500 foot shelf made up of flat talus rock that teeter totters the Jeep to the edge. Back and forth for a hundred yards or so of white knuckle driving knowing that improper vehicle handling can result in death; not just a broken axle.

        So I guess you can say that the trails I drive are EXTREME, just not EXTREME in the sense of crawling over rocks. To each there own and I'll leave my sway bar connected for that drive over Italian Creek.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by MaloCS View Post
          That's the point... you're talking EXTREME rock crawling while I'm talking about DIFFICULT trails that offer more challenge then just driving over 4 foot boulders. I have no aspirations of driving EXTREME rock crawling trails; I'll leave that to the guys with purpose built rigs and to the guys who just don't give a flying $%#^.

          Your advice, although pertinent to EXTREME trail runners just doesn't hold water for the rest of us. You may be an EXTREME rock crawler while I know for a fact that I'm not.
          Ya know, we were in complete agreement until you went off on that little tirade.
          I was simply lending a word of caution. If you calm down and re-read my post, you will NOT read one word about extreme or find the word rock or crawling, in my post.
          Regardless of where you drive, don't be surprised if your sway bar snaps when using the Nth Degree lift. The Nth Degree lift allows more wheel travel than the sway bar was designed for, regardless of speed or terrain. Therefore it's best to disconnect it unless you are strictly driving graded dirt roads. The so called purpose built rigs are 4 door Wranglers with Nth Degree lifts...and they work fine with the sway bar connected, right up until the point of failure. I'll take your 9 years of experience and raise you 41 years
          Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
          4540 Motorsports

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          • #35
            Are you guys talking about front or rear sway bars and rubicon or non-rubicon?

            And as a side note, we are talking about JKs here, which have only been around since model year 2007, so not sure 9 or 41 years of experience come into play.
            Curtis - 2008 JK Unlimited Rubicon Silver with 3.5 AEV lift, AEV Tire Carrier, Savegre Wheels and 35" MTRs w/ Kevlar - Former 2004 Dodge Ram 3500 4x4 Laramie 4 door - Former 2002 TJ with 33s.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Jeepnboy View Post
              Are you guys talking about front or rear sway bars and rubicon or non-rubicon?

              And as a side note, we are talking about JKs here, which have only been around since model year 2007, so not sure 9 or 41 years of experience come into play.
              His initial post was referencing the front sway bar. That is the bar that has broken (not mine) on Nth Degree equipped JK's. One was a Rubicon that was left in the connected mode.

              I think his 9 years was a reference to his off road driving experience being extensive, which is fine. I responded in kind so he would not think he was talking to some 19 year old rock racer. (some of whom are my friends)

              The point remains, sway bar breakage is a possibility, not a given.
              It HAS happened on Nth degree equipped JK's because the suspension can articulate beyond the design parameters and the ability of the sway bar to flex.
              The sway bar is designed to constrain the front suspension for highway use, not sure why the effort was not made to install disconnects and simply get out and disconnect, or push the button on a Rubicon!

              Most of us air down to meet the trail conditions, disconnecting, a non-Rubicon model, in 30 seconds or less, is a minor issue while you are airing down. If one is not inclined to the physical activity of pulling a few pins, you can look into one of the several good auto systems. If you have a Rubicon, simply push the button...
              Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
              4540 Motorsports

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by MoparNorm View Post
                The sway bar is designed to constrain the front suspension for highway use, not sure why the effort was not made to install disconnects and simply get out and disconnect, or push the button on a Rubicon!
                I think he was trying to limit the flex in most situations to try to save the drive shaft by keeping the sway bar connected.

                This is not a method I would recomend since the end links, and sway bar alone aren't built strong enough to really limit the axle flex under off-road conditions. On the stock axle I have seen this method bend and shear stock sway bar end links, cause the bushings to separate, and also shear off axle mounting brackets.

                With the Nth brackets I think that the axle would be safe, but you would still have to worry about the end links. The boot on the driveshaft is also only tearing under extreme flex (passenger side stuffed, driver side fully extended)and the sway bar would be disconected any way.

                The only way to fix the problem is to either get a new driveshaft (which would also allow another 1" of front droop), get a manual, or find something else to limit the travel like a shorter shock, or limiting straps.
                Jon

                2008 Rubicon Unlimited
                4.5" AEV lift, 37" Nitto Trail Grapplers, AEV front/rear bumpers, AEV Corners, Factory Ten Axle Shafts.

                Comment


                • #38


                  You guys are doing TOO much thinking for me.


                  The primary reason I leave my sway bar connected is because for the type of driving I'm doing I don't need the extra wheel travel. A bonus to this methodology is a prolonged life span for the drive shaft (in certain driving situations). Regardless, I have disconnected in the past based upon the difficulty of the trail so a new, smaller and stronger drive shaft is warranted.

                  All I'm saying is in 9 years, I've NEVER encountered an issue with operating my vehicle with the front sway bar connected in off road situations, regardless of make, model or axle type. Additionally, and I'm not a suspension engineer, but it seems to me that the forces generated in high speed, slalom maneuvering generate much more force on the sway bar then the very slow and deliberate force caused by articulating over trail imperfections at very slow speeds (sub 10mph).
                  Last edited by MaloCS; 10-15-2010, 01:56 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MaloCS View Post


                    ... Additionally, and I'm not a suspension engineer, but it seems to me that the forces generated in high speed, slalom maneuvering generate much more force on the sway bar then the very slow and deliberate force caused by articulating over trail imperfections at very slow speeds (sub 10mph).

                    I hate to prolong this... but since we seem to be having a good discussion, and I played an engineer in Nascar for a few years (I have the hat) the forces generated in high speed maneuvering are primarily lateral forces, with an intense but limited vertical nature.
                    The forces exerted upon a sway bar when having one side of the axle up and one side of the axle down, place tremendous pressure on the basically immovable object called the sway bar, which as it's entire purpose, is to counteract the up or down movement of the opposite wheel.

                    If you keep your sway bar connected and never have an issue, that's well and good, however if you ever experience a break, such as those noted by Jon and myself, please fess up here...
                    Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
                    4540 Motorsports

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by MoparNorm View Post
                      If you keep your sway bar connected and never have an issue, that's well and good...
                      I'm glad you see it my way.
                      Last edited by MaloCS; 10-16-2010, 01:46 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MaloCS View Post
                        I'm glad you see it my way.
                        I don't. I expect an admission someday...
                        Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
                        4540 Motorsports

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MoparNorm View Post
                          If you keep your sway bar connected and never have an issue, that's well and good...
                          I'm glad you see the error in your ways.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MaloCS View Post
                            I'm glad you see the error in your ways.
                            Now you're getting tedious...
                            Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
                            4540 Motorsports

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MoparNorm View Post
                              I don't. I expect an admission someday...
                              Just like when I said your drive shaft boot would tear and it did?
                              Jon

                              2008 Rubicon Unlimited
                              4.5" AEV lift, 37" Nitto Trail Grapplers, AEV front/rear bumpers, AEV Corners, Factory Ten Axle Shafts.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JeepinJon View Post
                                Just like when I said your drive shaft boot would tear and it did?
                                Yep! ...and I told you about it didn't I... Never had a problem with the truth...= )
                                FYI, I tore the rear last weekend...
                                Crew Chief Ultra 4 4500 Class
                                4540 Motorsports

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