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  • #31
    Originally posted by RF2200 View Post
    Also, keep in mind that China is a communist country. They do not believe in American values including individualism, competition, and property ownership, which includes intellectual property. I own multiple companies and hold multiple patents and I feel for innovative companies like Rotpax, Maxtrax, or even AEV when Chinese companies blatantly rip off their inventions like this company http://unity4wd.en.alibaba.com .

    It is easy to copy something. It is hard to invent it. Every time you buy a Chinese product you are supporting their actions. Don't get me wrong, Chinese manufacturing is great to a certain extent. Why use our steel when we can have theirs for cheap, why use our labor when we can have theirs for cheap, why ruin our natural resources when we can have theirs for cheap. This is a logical and beneficial arrangement for the United States, but not at the expense of the values that make the entire economy work which includes personal property ownership.
    Amen brother. Exactly why I avoid buying anything made in China if I can (which is getting harder and harder).

    I'll pay the extra to have something made in the US if at all possible.

    Comment


    • #32
      OK RF, I just went with 2 of these:


      CM M653AG Alloy Anchor Shackle with Galvanized Screw Pin, 9.5 Ton Work Load Limit, 7/8" Size

      Originally posted by RF2200 View Post
      7/8" high strength alloy is the correct choice. Made in America, because Americans are better. Skookum is best, then Columbus McKinnon, Crosby, and Campbell. Crosby 7/8" G-209A is probably the best value/strength ratio. I believe that AEV has the 1" Crosby G-209 on their trucks but that shackle is not the best choice.

      Buy the Skookum 7/8" 263 shackle if you want the best. Buy the Crosby G-209A, Columbus McKinnon M653A , or Campbell 5411495 if you cannot afford the best. Note that the Crosby G-209 and the Crosby G-209A are not the same.

      Warn shackles are made in China and are a poor choice and poor value.

      Comment


      • #33
        MarAgt, nice choice and a great deal at $44.75. I did not know that these were even on Amazon, and with free prime shipping no less. And galvanized is the right choice for a truck that sees winter roads.
        Also found this on Amazon which is about the deal of the century on a 7/8" Made in USA Galvanized Alloy Shackle at $35.43 with free shipping on Amazon.

        http://www.amazon.com/Campbell-54114...dp/B00DZV1O0Q/

        Edit: I don't think the 5411495 is actually all blue. It should look like the one linked below, which is unpainted galvanized with orange screw pin (pretty much just like the CM). I was curious and ordered one. I ordered one of the CM as well and now the CM is out of stock from Amazon. I should get them on Friday. Will let you know what they look like if anyone is interested.

        http://www.campbellchainandfittings....alvanized.html
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBv4BfodDRo
        Last edited by RF2200; 01-06-2016, 08:41 AM.
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        • #34
          Also, I was going to say that not everything that Warn sells is made in China. A lot of it is made in the USA. For example, the WARN 28626 Clevis Safety Hook that I have on my Power Wagon winch and also what you may all have on your Warn 16.5ti winches is a Made in USA Columbus McKinnon unit.
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          • #35
            http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o00_s00

            Must have posted to wrong link. Because it was actually less expensive from this seller on Amazon.


            Originally posted by RF2200 View Post
            MarAgt, nice choice and a great deal at $44.75. I did not know that these were even on Amazon, and with free prime shipping no less. And galvanized is the right choice for a truck that sees winter roads.
            Also found this on Amazon which is about the deal of the century on a 7/8" Made in USA Galvanized Alloy Shackle at $35.43 with free shipping on Amazon.

            http://www.amazon.com/Campbell-54114...dp/B00DZV1O0Q/

            This is good to know. No need to replace it then. :-)

            Originally posted by RF2200 View Post
            ...The WARN 28626 Clevis Safety Hook that I have on my Power Wagon winch and also what you may all have on your Warn 16.5ti winches is a Made in USA Columbus McKinnon unit.

            Now to figure out which snatch block and tree protector I want to get.
            Last edited by MarAgt; 01-06-2016, 10:46 AM.

            Comment


            • #36
              There are multiple sellers on Amazon for the same product so after the CM shackles that were stocked by Amazon were gone (out of stock from Amazon) then the seller, "Empire Rigging & Supply" in this case, comes up, so the same product link can show a different seller depending on product availability and when you click it. You can always check available sellers by clicking on the "Other Sellers on Amazon" located on the right side of the screen about half way down. The Amazon system should default to the cheapest seller unless Amazon is one of the sellers, in which case Amazon should always be listed as the default seller regardless of price.

              I was just buying one and I like Prime 2-day shipping so I just bought the one from Amazon for $44.75. If you don't have Prime or you are buying more than one then it may be better to go with the other seller. $29.42+$13.30 Shipping = $42.72 total. If you were buying four then it should only be (($29.42)(4)+$13.30)=$130.98 or $32.75/shackle or maybe a little more depending on how they do shipping which is a pretty good deal in my opinion.
              Last edited by RF2200; 01-06-2016, 01:28 PM.
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              • #37
                Yep, I have Prime. But, I bought two with 13.30 shipping which made them pretty reasonable.

                I also ordered the ARB tree strap.

                http://www.amazon.com/ARB-ARB730US-T.../dp/B0010DY4J4

                I know it's not American, but the reviews are exceptional and the price was really good too.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Received the shackles from Amazon last week. Both the CM and the Campbell look very similar. Galvanized with orange pin. I would say that the Campbell has a little higher quality finish and a little better design. I would choose the Campbell of the two.

                  Also heard back from Warn on the Epic products. I was hoping to sound naive in the email.

                  My Email:
                  "Hello,

                  I had a couple of questions regarding your Warn Epic 92093 shackle and Warn Epic 93195 snatch block.

                  What is the minimum breaking strength for the shackle? What material is the shackle made out of? I know it says forged, but forged Alloy steel or forged Carbon steel, or something else? Is the load rating stamped on the shackle anywhere?

                  It seems like most shackles that are rated for the 16.5ti winch are 1" shackles like the Crosby G209 with a working load limit of 8.5 tons, not 3/4", so this Epic one must be super strong?

                  What is the minimum breaking strength for the snatch block? What is the minimum force that can damage the snatch block? (not catastrophic failure, but bent or damaged in some way) Sure, a snatch block might tear in half with 60,000 pounds of force but a smaller force, say 40,000, might be enough to damage the bearings, or sheave or deform the eyelets so that the snatch block does not work as well the next time you use it? Or not? Is the load rating stamped on the snatch block anywhere?

                  The snatch block says rated to 18,000 LB. Does that mean rated for an 18,000 LB winch, so actually 36,000 LB? or is it rated for a 9,000 LB winch, so actually 18,000 LB? Is there a safety factor? And when you say rated, who was it rated by? Is there someone that rates your products or is there some standard that you must adhere to?

                  Thank you for your time and thoughtful reply"

                  Warn Response:
                  "The shackle is permanently marked “WLL 9T” so 18,000lbs, and meets Federal Specification RR-C-271F TYPE IV A, CLASS 2 with a min proof load of 39,600lbs. I cannot disclose the exact (forged carbon steel) metallurgy or ultimate failure point but it VASTLY exceeds this number. There should be no way to hurt this working within it’s working load limit of 9 tons.

                  The load rating on the snatch block is also permanently marked at 18T with a minimum proof load of 36,000 lbs, meaning it should not deform at 36,000 lbs or less. AND there is a safety factor of 2:1
                  The label below comes with this snatch block indicating the max load for the snatch block and the winch.

                  To meet a Federal Standard it would have to be tested at government certified test lab."
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                  • #39
                    So, they are claiming that the Warn Epic 92093 shackle is as strong as the 7/8" Crosby Alloy Screw Pin Anchor Shackle (G-209A) or as strong as the Skookum 3/4" Alloy Screw Pin Anchor Shackle. I guess you just have to choose whether or not to trust them, or more like the Chinese manufacturer who makes the shackles. Not sure why they won't provide whether or not it is a carbon, super carbon, or alloy shackle and why they won't provide the minimum ultimate strength.

                    I was unable to share the picture that they sent with the email but essentially the proof load for the snatch block is 36,000 pounds, meaning that if you exceed 36,000 pounds you will put the snatch block in a condition where it will deform and not return to its original state. This to me is not satisfactory, see shock loading below. Warn did reference a safety factor of 2:1 which would indicate a minimum breaking strength of two times the WLL or 2(36,000)=72,000 LB but if you got close to that your snatch block would deform and be unusable.

                    Watch this video to see how shackles should deform before their ultimate failure point.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VPmZN1z-jE
                    This deformation is a good thing as it lets you know that the shackle is overloaded and is going to break and if it is bent to not use the shackle again. Many cheaper shackles do not have the ductility of the more expensive shackles and may fracture and fail catastrophically instead of deforming. They also may not have equivalent fatigue resistance causing the shackles to weaken due to use and repeated loading.

                    Shock loading is essentially when an object has both mass and velocity (momentum) and the velocity rapidly changes creating a force which is very large for a short period of time. Jerking on a tow strap while towing is an example. Punching someone in the face is another example. Shock loading is relatively rare in overhead rigging. Shock loading happens all the time in vehicle recovery. Even a momentary spike in force on your rigging can cause deformation or failure.
                    Last edited by RF2200; 01-14-2016, 07:51 AM.
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                    • #40
                      About tree straps: When using them they should be doubled up which increases their strength.

                      When you are rigging a pull do not choke the tree this will reduce the strength of your tree strap. You want to either just sling your strap around the tree or wrap it around the tree once taking care to not cross or twist the strap which will stop the strap from sliding up or down the tree/anchor point. You should always have both ends of the tree strap attached to the shackle.

                      Tree straps are shaped the way they are so they don't girdle and kill the tree. If you are winching off a rock or a tree that is already dead (caution there) or something else you don't really need a "tree strap."
                      Last edited by RF2200; 01-13-2016, 11:47 AM.
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                      • #41
                        So, do you buy the Warn Epic snatch block or not? Well it is up to you. Like I said before if you want a snatch block with the same type of safety factor as your shackles and is designed to work with your winch (6" sheave + 7/16" wire rope) it is going to be a custom order it is going to cost over $600 and it is going to weigh about 50 pounds. Is it worth it for something that you will rarely use? Not sure, but I would definitely buy the Epic over the other snatch block that Warn offers.

                        There are really two things that you use snatch blocks for 1) repositioning the direction of your line 2) double line pull, when you need to pull harder or to let out more winch line so you are able to do a pull on the first wind of the drum. This snatch block should work great for the first and I would have reservations about the second.

                        MasterPull makes a snatch block in the USA that has about the same ratings as the Warn Epic and costs $359. Masterpull SB75000-22

                        What makes me upset is their reasoning. They reason that since most people have Jeeps and full size trucks that they won't exceed the 36,000 LB limit so they don't need a factor of safety since these trucks weigh around 5T at the most so we can sell them a 6T snatch block and call it an 18T and rape them on the price. Well what happens when someone with a big Unimog with an 18K winch gets stuck and decides to pull this snatch block out. After all, it says rated for 36,000 pounds and you will definitely need a double line pull on an 18K winch to get that thing unstuck because when it is stuck it is really stuck. The snatch block will more than likely be ruined and could potentially be very dangerous.
                        Last edited by RF2200; 01-13-2016, 11:43 AM.
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                        • #42
                          Shackle Sizes & suggestions

                          Fortunately I don't have to pull a Unimog out of the mud. [emoji2]

                          I ended up buying the ARB snatch block

                          https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0010...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

                          And the ARB tree strap

                          https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0010...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

                          I'm out of town this week, so I've not seen them in person yet, they're waiting at the house.

                          My CM shackles are sitting at the house too. My wife has been receiving these boxes all week and seems to believe I need an Amazon intervention. [emoji38]
                          Last edited by MarAgt; 01-13-2016, 02:39 PM.

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                          • #43
                            the industrial world has snatch blocks rated for as high as you can imagine. They do cost considerably more than you may want to pay and will come with a weight penalty. Search a site such as grainger and you will find options.
                            2012 JKUR 3.5"SC 37s etc
                            2002 BMW E46 M3 (in need of LSX power)

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by wannarun View Post
                              the industrial world has snatch blocks rated for as high as you can imagine. They do cost considerably more than you may want to pay and will come with a weight penalty. Search a site such as grainger and you will find options.
                              +1

                              I used to wheel with a guy who was a "professional plumber", his day job involved projects like lowering 8 foot tall valves into water tunnels deep under the city. He had the OSHA cable guidelines memorized.

                              The first thing he did with a new winch was throw out the stock winch cable and upgrade a size. All his cables, shackles, snatch blocks, etc were purchased from an industrial rigging supply place (like http://www.carpenterrigging.com) and were well beyond the specs of the standard 4x4 recovery kits.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by wannarun View Post
                                the industrial world has snatch blocks rated for as high as you can imagine. They do cost considerably more than you may want to pay and will come with a weight penalty. Search a site such as grainger and you will find options.
                                +1

                                I used to wheel with a guy who was a "professional plumber", his day job involved projects like lowering 8 foot tall valves into water tunnels deep under the city. He had the OSHA cable guidelines memorized.

                                The first thing he did with a new winch was throw out the stock winch cable and upgrade a size. All his cables, shackles, snatch blocks, etc were purchased from an industrial rigging supply place (like http://www.carpenterrigging.com) and were well beyond the specs of the standard 4x4 recovery kits.

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