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  • #16
    Originally posted by Manchester View Post
    So today I almost got the truck stuck on the road to the cabin we are living in on some fresh slippy snow with a bit of incline. Had to put it in 4 low and let it spin & churn its way to the top. My truck does not have traction control or the factory LSD.

    I don't plan on any real hardcore offroad with the truck but I do need to get up snow covered roads/trails and not sit spinning at stoplights. Would I be be best served with a TrueTrac that is gonna be working all the time?

    This may have jumped to the top of the to do list after today.
    depends...

    Were all 4 tires moving? Or 2 of them?

    I buried my truck in a 3' drift / ditch and climbed out w/ lockers a few days ago...father in law was behind me thinking he was going to have to pull me out wondering WTF I was doing (purposely let off the throttle and let the truck settle in it :-) ). Lockers helped because 2 of the tires had pressure on them. If all 4 of yours were spinning, not sure a locker is going to do you much good, infact I purposely don't ever run it when side hilling and not sure I would recommend something like a detroit in snow (you probably know this). Just a set of cable type chains would probably suffice for you (quick and easy).

    Also, what tire pressures you running front and rear?

    Fresh slippy snow = trending towards chains if your towing, exactly the kind of crud that scares the crap out of you in october if your caught without them.
    2014 CCSB Tradesman 2500 -- G56 -- AEV dualsport -- AEV Katla -- 37x12.5r17 Toyo R/T -- 315/70r17 Nokian Hakkapeliitta -- AEV bumper -- VisionX 6.7" light cannon -- Warn 16.5TI -- Mopar flares -- 8.4" Uconnect swap w/ customtronix jailbreak (front/rear/trailer cam) -- 3.73 gears w/ ARB front and rear -- Switch-Pros 8100

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Wapitihunter View Post
      depends...

      Were all 4 tires moving? Or 2 of them?

      I buried my truck in a 3' drift / ditch and climbed out w/ lockers a few days ago...father in law was behind me thinking he was going to have to pull me out wondering WTF I was doing (purposely let off the throttle and let the truck settle in it :-) ). Lockers helped because 2 of the tires had pressure on them. If all 4 of yours were spinning, not sure a locker is going to do you much good, infact I purposely don't ever run it when side hilling and not sure I would recommend something like a detroit in snow (you probably know this). Just a set of cable type chains would probably suffice for you (quick and easy).

      Also, what tire pressures you running front and rear?

      Fresh slippy snow = trending towards chains if your towing, exactly the kind of crud that scares the crap out of you in october if your caught without them.
      Not sure but thinking that only two were spinning at any time.

      Running light load pressure (60 psi front / 45 psi rear)

      Gonna pick up a set of cable chains just in case.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Manchester View Post
        Not sure but thinking that only two were spinning at any time.

        Running light load pressure (60 psi front / 45 psi rear)

        Gonna pick up a set of cable chains just in case.
        you might try checking the load chart for the tires. Will probably drop your PSI below what the truck wants, but could be safe for highway use and will help alot with your foot print. Might not need chains at all, just drop down to 40 and 30 or something. I'll see if i can find a load chart, most companies are not posting them any more.
        2014 CCSB Tradesman 2500 -- G56 -- AEV dualsport -- AEV Katla -- 37x12.5r17 Toyo R/T -- 315/70r17 Nokian Hakkapeliitta -- AEV bumper -- VisionX 6.7" light cannon -- Warn 16.5TI -- Mopar flares -- 8.4" Uconnect swap w/ customtronix jailbreak (front/rear/trailer cam) -- 3.73 gears w/ ARB front and rear -- Switch-Pros 8100

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Wapitihunter View Post
          you might try checking the load chart for the tires. Will probably drop your PSI below what the truck wants, but could be safe for highway use and will help alot with your foot print. Might not need chains at all, just drop down to 40 and 30 or something. I'll see if i can find a load chart, most companies are not posting them any more.
          https://toyotires2-1524598101.netdna...s_20151020.pdf

          According to this I could drop to 35 in the rear and 40 in the front, if I am reading it correctly and my math is right. Used the base weight off the Ram body builders guide. 4574# front and 2822# rear.
          Last edited by Manchester; 12-29-2015, 09:55 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Manchester View Post
            https://toyotires2-1524598101.netdna...s_20151020.pdf

            According to this I could drop to 35 in the rear and 40 in the front, if I am reading it correctly and my math is right. Used the base weight off the Ram body builders guide. 4574# front and 2822# rear.
            That gets you close, but does not include any other weight (people, some optional equipment, yadda ). Local dump might give you axle weights for free. I ran similar pressures on mine and saw an improvement in traction but worse gas mileage. Better tire wear.
            2014 CCSB Tradesman 2500 -- G56 -- AEV dualsport -- AEV Katla -- 37x12.5r17 Toyo R/T -- 315/70r17 Nokian Hakkapeliitta -- AEV bumper -- VisionX 6.7" light cannon -- Warn 16.5TI -- Mopar flares -- 8.4" Uconnect swap w/ customtronix jailbreak (front/rear/trailer cam) -- 3.73 gears w/ ARB front and rear -- Switch-Pros 8100

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            • #21
              Manchester, you will probably be best served by modifying your driving technique and you should see substantial improvement. Use a higher gear than “low”. The higher gear ratio will reduce torque and help reduce wheelspin. Drive straight up, and steer for traction if momentum wanes. Steering for traction is when you make quick 1/4 turns left and right repeatedly until traction is gained. If you fail the ascent then fully apply the brakes, engage reverse, and back straight down. Left foot braking should substantially decrease wheelspin and help you maintain forward momentum. Left foot braking is pressing your left foot on the brake and your right foot on the throttle simultaneously. Traction control only kicks in after your tires have lost traction (reactive). Left foot braking helps your tires maintain traction and not spin in the first place (proactive) and helps regain forward momentum after your tires have lost traction (reactive) by helping to equalize speed to each wheel and allow more torque to be sent to the wheel with more traction. Left foot braking will also keep your brake rotors clean and dry. If this doesn't get you where you need to go then use chains, then add taller tires, then add lockers.

              https://youtu.be/L85t5WLCK84

              People also get confused about traction in winter conditions and what to do with your tires. On ice, hard packed snow, and a small amount of snow on top of ice or hard packed snow you want a tire with the least rolling resistance and smallest contact area possible which results in a higher pressure per unit area between your tire and the road surface (tall, narrow, and fully inflated). When you are on snow surfaces where you are not "finding the bottom" such as deep snow or driving on a glacier you want a tire with the least rolling resistance and the largest contact area possible which results in a lower pressure per unit area between your tire and the road surface (tall, wide, and aired down).
              Last edited by RF2200; 12-30-2015, 10:22 AM.
              Ram Laramie Power Wagon
              AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
              Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
              Land Rover 110
              Unimog U1200
              Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

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              • #22
                Forgot to discuss siping which people are also generally confused about.

                Tires make traction in multiple ways, mechanical grip is one of these ways which causes the edges of the tread that grab the irregularities in the road surface like teeth and propel the vehicle forward. The more grooves or sipes in the tire, the more mechanical grip you will have. Circumference grooves will enhance side bite. Lateral grooves will enhance forward bite.

                Sipes do not increase surface area of your tire.

                Adding sipes to the tire laterally will increase mechanical grip and cause the rubber molecules to rub against each other. This will increase the operating temperature of the tire. Sipes around the circumference of the tire will open up at speed and provide airflow between the blocks of rubber. This will provide some heat retention at low speed but cool the tire at high speeds. Grooving provides air flow between the tread blocks and make the tire run cooler across the board.

                So, siping increases mechanical grip, increases tire operating temperature, and is generally beneficial in all types of winter tires.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tc3VIDQvh0
                Last edited by RF2200; 12-30-2015, 03:56 PM.
                Ram Laramie Power Wagon
                AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
                Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
                Land Rover 110
                Unimog U1200
                Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RF2200 View Post
                  and fully inflated
                  I agree 100% with everything you said except this, unless you mean a full contact patch. Grease monkeys pumped my tires up to max side wall pressure, reduced surface area, and my subaru w/ blizzaks was like driving with bald tires. Air down to 'fully' inflated or lower than fully inflated and friction vs. surface area trumps pressure for stopping and going on ice. IMHO, stayed at a holiday inn express again last night. I think you do better getting moving on ice by airing down - I challenge you to a dual!
                  2014 CCSB Tradesman 2500 -- G56 -- AEV dualsport -- AEV Katla -- 37x12.5r17 Toyo R/T -- 315/70r17 Nokian Hakkapeliitta -- AEV bumper -- VisionX 6.7" light cannon -- Warn 16.5TI -- Mopar flares -- 8.4" Uconnect swap w/ customtronix jailbreak (front/rear/trailer cam) -- 3.73 gears w/ ARB front and rear -- Switch-Pros 8100

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                  • #24
                    Haha. Ok. A duel it is. Facts vs feelings.

                    I said fully inflated, not over inflated. You don't want a bulging tire. I think we know all know that when you put 35" tires with a stiff carcass on a JK you are not running them at 70 psi or whatever the max pressure is. You are going to run them at around 30 psi. That is fully inflated - when you have an even contact patch laterally and no less or more. Under inflated or "aired down" generally will not help you on icy roads.

                    You do better moving on ice with the right tires with the right tread compound and the right mechanical grip enhancements (siping, studs, chains). Mechanical grip trumps adhesion on ice. Siping, studs, and chains will trump even the softest stickiest rubber compound on ice. So, if airing down puts more sipes, studs, and/or chain in contact with the ice then traction may be enhanced to a limited extent, but there are many other disbenefits that outweigh the potential enhancements. Look at what ice racers use on ice and replicate that on your truck if you want ice traction, but that is not practical and would be poor in snow. Manchester asked specifically about a loose snow covered road/driveway that was being traversed with a 4x4 Ram 2500 Cummins with open differentials on 285/75R17 Toyo R/T II tires.

                    Hypothetically, even if Manchester did increase traction in his tires by airing the tires down he would increase rolling resistance by an even greater amount resulting in a net loss. There are many different variables involved here beyond strictly traction. Furthermore, friction is independent of contact area. Said another way, friction does not depend on the amount of surface area in contact between two objects, the tires and ground in this instance. The amount of friction force depends on two things, the coefficient of friction and the mass of the object you are trying to move. Since the coefficient of friction is constant the only thing really determining the amount of friction force is the mass of the object you are trying to move, a truck in this instance. No matter how much you air down your tires you are not going change the mass of the truck, other than the slight mass of the air that you let out of the tires.

                    You can do this experiment at home. Take a brick and set it on a table largest surface area side down. Take a force gauge and pull on the brick until static friction is broken. Note measurement. Now take the brick and set it on end with the smallest surface area down. Then pull with force gauge until static friction is broken. Note measurement.

                    They will be the same. Friction is independent of contact surface area.
                    Last edited by RF2200; 12-30-2015, 02:36 PM.
                    Ram Laramie Power Wagon
                    AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
                    Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
                    Land Rover 110
                    Unimog U1200
                    Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RF2200 View Post

                      They will be the same. Friction is independent of contact surface area.
                      As a former fellow student of statics and dynamics I agree 100%, bad choice of words, thats why I went chemical not mechanical at my last stay in the holiday inn express.

                      I still think I could beat you in an up hill drag race if we had the same tires and mine were lower than typical street pressure. I think I would stop faster too. This sounds like a fun experiment (roads are total ice here too, perfect).

                      edit: if nothing else than because the pressure that ram recommends on the tires (or any truck tire) is for max or light loads. If you have no load or very light load, the tire pressure is infact wrong for the load, which is why I think tires wear so fast and the ride is so bad at 60psi/40psi. eh? I get that once you have the idea contact area for a flat road, then that is it, and that will correspond to a pressure for that tire - but i'm saying the pressure he is running is too high, you don't agree his pressure is to high?
                      Last edited by Wapitihunter; 12-30-2015, 02:50 PM.
                      2014 CCSB Tradesman 2500 -- G56 -- AEV dualsport -- AEV Katla -- 37x12.5r17 Toyo R/T -- 315/70r17 Nokian Hakkapeliitta -- AEV bumper -- VisionX 6.7" light cannon -- Warn 16.5TI -- Mopar flares -- 8.4" Uconnect swap w/ customtronix jailbreak (front/rear/trailer cam) -- 3.73 gears w/ ARB front and rear -- Switch-Pros 8100

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Agreed that the manufacturer's recommended pressure is too high for an unladen truck. Blame Ford Explorer/Firestone debacle years back.

                        This is a question of optimization more than anything. Tractive force vs rolling resistance vs tire deformation vs safety vs clearance under differentials vs etc.
                        Last edited by RF2200; 12-30-2015, 05:14 PM.
                        Ram Laramie Power Wagon
                        AEV Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
                        Land Rover Discovery SD Series I
                        Land Rover 110
                        Unimog U1200
                        Husqvarna TR650 Terra Touratech

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I am running my siped R/T's at 48 in the front and 44 in the rear on a 2500 Mega Cab. Considering the roads and passes I have done I am pleased. I am also running stock 3.42 gearing so I am sure the fact that I tend to lug it a little doesn't hurt. I also have limited slip. I will be changing to 4.10's and ARB lockers this spring. Hoping the AEV switch panel is out soon

                          Pete

                          I'll take my truck any day of the week over my JKU in bad weather

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                          • #28
                            Why the change to ARB over the LSD?

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                            • #29
                              For the select ability aspect and getting the front locker out of it. I do feel with LSD you get some tire wear due to that so would rather have open for the majority of the year

                              Pete

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                              • #30
                                Anyone have input on the ARB vs the electric lockers like used in the Power Wagon?

                                Don't know if applies to the Ram version but heard some reliability complaints about electric lockers in general. Think they may offer some install ease over the ARB (at least no compressor).

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